Are we doing church wrong?

Ken Anderson

Greeter
Staff member
What is the primary purpose of the gathered church?

Meetings of New Testament believers appear to have been overwhelmingly oriented toward the edification of existing Christians, not the evangelism of outsiders.

For example:
  • Acts 2:42 describes believers devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching, fellowship, breaking of bread, and prayer.
  • 1 Corinthians 14 focuses on orderly worship so that the church may be "built up."
  • Ephesians 4 describes leaders equipping the saints for ministry and building up the body of Christ.
  • The pastoral epistles are largely concerned with doctrine, discipline, leadership, and spiritual growth within congregations.
When Paul writes to Corinth, Philippi, Thessalonica, or Rome, he is generally addressing people who are already believers. His concern is their doctrine, conduct, unity, generosity, and perseverance.

In Acts, we see evangelism occurring outside of the gatherings of believers:
  • In synagogues.
  • In marketplaces.
  • In homes.
  • Along roads.
  • In lecture halls.
  • Before civil authorities.
  • In an informal conversation.
Paul's missionary strategy was mobile and public. He went where unbelievers already were rather than inviting them to a church service and hoping they would come.

The modern model of bringing friends to church and letting the pastor preach the gospel to them doesn't seem to be the dominant New Testament pattern.

Early Christian gatherings weren't necessarily closed to outsiders. In 1 Corinthians 14, Paul envisions unbelievers entering an assembly and hearing what it said. He argues that intelligible worship could convict an unbeliever and lead him to acknowledge God's presence. So conversion within worship services did occur.

However, this passage treats unbelievers as visitors to a gathering that already exists for believers. The meeting itself is not described as an evangelistic event.

More importantly, the New Testament model places responsibility for witness on the entire body, not merely its paid staff and a few willing volunteer leaders.

The Great Commission was given to the disciples, but the pattern of Acts suggests broad participation. After the persecution following Stephen's death, Acts 8 says that ordinary believers who were scattered "went about preaching the word."

The apostles mostly remained in Jerusalem.

The language of Ephesians 4 is also significant. Pastors and teachers are not described as doing all the ministry themselves. Rather, they are to equip the saints for the work of the ministry.

The modern model in most Christian churches is one in which the pastors and staff perform ministry, while the members consume ministry.

Even churches that reject this idea tend to drift into it practically. People attend services, contribute financially, perhaps volunteer occasionally, but do not view themselves as personally responsible for disciple-making or evangelism.

Christianity's growth in the first three centuries was driven less by large public worship events and more by countless ordinary Christians influencing family members, neighbors, co-workers, travelers, slaves, merchants, and friends through everyday relationships.

The New Testament pattern appears to place the primary evangelistic responsibility on ordinary believers as witnesses in the world, while the primary purpose of the gathered church is the worship, instruction, discipline, and strengthening of those who already believe. Conversions could and did occur in church gatherings, but evangelism was not ordinarily centered on the gathering itself.

Perhaps the modern attractional church model came about because the clergy became professionals, while congregations became audiences. The New Testament reads more like a movement in which every believer is expected to be an active participant in both ministry and witness.

There are exceptions, of course, but the exceptions don't negate the rule.

Church bodies that are known for placing the responsibility of evangelism in the hands of regular church members are, for the most part, outside of mainstream Christianity, such as the Mormons, the Jehovah's Witnesses, and some Pentecostal churches.

Many, and I would suggest the majority, of mainstream Christians consider overt proselytizing as socially awkward or even impolite. Statements such as "I don't push my beliefs on anyone" are offered as a virtue.

In the Early Church, there is an assumption that Christians will speak about their faith, not necessarily by standing on street corners, but neither by remaining silent. Followers of Christ are described as witnesses, ambassadors, those who proclaim the good news, and those who make disciples. The expectation seems to be that faith naturally spreads from one person to another.

The New Testament does not prescribe a single evangelistic method, however.
  • Paul reasoned in synagogues.
  • He debated philosophers in Athens.
  • Philip spoke to a single Ethiopian official on a desert road.
  • Priscilla and Aquila instructed Apollos privately.
  • Ordinary believers spread the message wherever they were scattered.
The method varied, but the participation was broad.

Many mainstream churches agree with this principle in theory. Pastors will often cite Ephesians 4, where leaders are to equip the saints for ministry.

The difference is in practice. Many congregations effectively operate on a come-and-see model:
  • The church creates a welcoming service.
  • The pastor preaches.
  • The music program attracts visitors.
  • Members invite friends.
Evangelism has been reduced to bringing someone to church with you.

In contrast, the New Testament model is a go-and-tell model:
  • Believers are scattered throughout society.
  • They engage people where those people already are.
  • The church gathering then strengthens those who believe.
Modern churches might simultaneously lament the decline of evangelism while unintentionally reinforcing a model in which the average member's role is largely attendance, giving, and volunteering.

In contrast, the early church expected nearly every believer to be a participant in the spread of the faith, even if not everyone had the same gifts or effectiveness.
 
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I dunno Kenny...


I have seen some ppl say Church is a form of control.. Trying to stop people from just doing anything..

I think just loving God in our own time IS BETTER THAN SOME RELIGON trying to control how we do it...
 
To answer the thread topic question, since the are 100's of ways different churches hold services, etc., I say folks pick a church that they feel best aligned with and feel that church is doing it right.

I don't think any of the churches today resemble the early church in the slightest. Several periods of changes from the original church and then churches that were born out of leaders claiming miraculous revelation. No one spoke English in the early church established in the mid East.

With all the instant forms of communication and ability to travel we have, we don't understand that the major reason early Christians gathered was otherwise they had no way of fellowship. There was strength in numbers and fellowship.

One thing I think the early churches did that is lost today, is their gatherings were more informal. Anyone could speak or sing and it was improvision, not studied or memorized. It came from the heart. They didn't have songs that all sang from books, one just started singing from what was on their mind. Praying was more of a personal thing, than a group thing, where a pastor prayed and the rest listened.

Churches are businesses these days and everything is organized, choregraphed, and carefully scrutinized.

I think why western Christian churches don't resemble the ones of old, is the western world doesn't understand the culture of the people in the early church, where oral tradition and observation, were before the written word that has been studied to the point of resembling beating a dead horse. Churches today are about their own doctrine.
 
Getting together with my little church helps strengthen me. I am amazed at the money spent in Rome for thousands of years instead of using it for the poor. Or on the temples of the Mormons or almost any large denomination.
 
No they certainly dont Kenny. We get alot of witnesses at our house. They tell me most ppl slam the door in thier faces..

They are just trying to spread the word :)
 
No they certainly dont Kenny. We get alot of witnesses at our house. They tell me most ppl slam the door in thier faces..

They are just trying to spread the word :)
That is what we were told to do in the original 'Church' of Christ, what the apostles set out to do. I would not join their churches but I have spent time listening and debating with them in the past.
 
My dad answered the door one day when they came.. That was not a good exchange.. (My dad isnt as nice as me)

You say that like you're proud. Why be hateful to people who have done no harm? Just say you're not interested and close the door.

And why do you insist on calling people "Kenny" or "Johnny" when that is NOT their name? Some people don't like it when liberties are taken.
 
I am neither a Mormon nor a Jehovah's Witness, but it takes a lot of courage to go door-to-door trying to reach people for your religion. Of the two denominations, the Mormons only do that for a year or two, generally while they are very young, while the JW's continue doing so, and I have to admire that. Other things that I admire about the Jehovah's Witnesses are that they don't use an ordained clergy (regular members give the sermon), and they are very quiet about giving.

Years ago, I invited the Jehovah's Witnesses into my house and met with them weekly for a couple of months before they finally gave up on me, and I attended the Kingdom Hall a couple of times. Unlike what I was told growing up, they aren't looking for your money. I have about a dozen JW books, and they wouldn't accept a cent for them, and when I attended the Kingdom Hall, no one passed a collection plate around. There was an unobtrusive box near the back of the room where someone could place a contribution. While members are probably expected to contribute, they aren't looking for it from visitors.

I've met with a couple of different pairs of Jehovah's Witnesses, and it seems that they generally pair a new member, usually younger, with a more experienced member, so it's kind of fun to address questions to the younger member. I also noted that when you meet with them, they have a prepared lesson plan, which doesn't include much from the Bible, not even their own Bible, and it throws them off when you take them off-topic on other Biblical questions.

When I worked EMS in Los Fresnos, Texas, the Mormons rented a house across the street from our station, so I got to know them on a personal basis, since they'd come by to talk quite a lot. They worked two-year missions, and they don't get to choose where they go or who they will be with. Someone in their first year of a mission will be placed with someone who has already been there for a year, and then someone else will take the first person's place after a year. One of the guys who came by probably wasn't the best Mormon in the world because he would complain about his partner and drink coffee when his partner wasn't around.

I didn't get into many theological discussions with the Mormons because they hung out with us during their off-time, I guess. When I worked at a paper bag company, one of my co-workers converted to the Mormon faith, but he was a jerk before he became a Mormon and was still a jerk afterwards.

Nevertheless, it takes courage to go door-to-door on a religious mission because most people will refuse to talk to you, and many of them are downright rude. When I was a child, one of my older brothers would brag about having sicced the dog on the Jehovah's Witnesses when they came around, and, even as a child, I thought that over-the-top rude. Our dog wouldn't have actually hurt them, but could put on a show of barking and growling. I could sic the dog on one of my brothers, and he'd do the same thing.

I am polite to them when they come around. I don't waste their time anymore inviting them in to try to convert me because that isn't going to happen, but I admire their willingness to try.
 
I am neither a Mormon nor a Jehovah's Witness, but it takes a lot of courage to go door-to-door trying to reach people for your religion. Of the two denominations, the Mormons only do that for a year or two, generally while they are very young, while the JW's continue doing so, and I have to admire that. Other things that I admire about the Jehovah's Witnesses are that they don't use an ordained clergy (regular members give the sermon), and they are very quiet about giving.

Years ago, I invited the Jehovah's Witnesses into my house and met with them weekly for a couple of months before they finally gave up on me, and I attended the Kingdom Hall a couple of times. Unlike what I was told growing up, they aren't looking for your money. I have about a dozen JW books, and they wouldn't accept a cent for them, and when I attended the Kingdom Hall, no one passed a collection plate around. There was an unobtrusive box near the back of the room where someone could place a contribution. While members are probably expected to contribute, they aren't looking for it from visitors.

I've met with a couple of different pairs of Jehovah's Witnesses, and it seems that they generally pair a new member, usually younger, with a more experienced member, so it's kind of fun to address questions to the younger member. I also noted that when you meet with them, they have a prepared lesson plan, which doesn't include much from the Bible, not even their own Bible, and it throws them off when you take them off-topic on other Biblical questions.

When I worked EMS in Los Fresnos, Texas, the Mormons rented a house across the street from our station, so I got to know them on a personal basis, since they'd come by to talk quite a lot. They worked two-year missions, and they don't get to choose where they go or who they will be with. Someone in their first year of a mission will be placed with someone who has already been there for a year, and then someone else will take the first person's place after a year. One of the guys who came by probably wasn't the best Mormon in the world because he would complain about his partner and drink coffee when his partner wasn't around.

I didn't get into many theological discussions with the Mormons because they hung out with us during their off-time, I guess. When I worked at a paper bag company, one of my co-workers converted to the Mormon faith, but he was a jerk before he became a Mormon and was still a jerk afterwards.

Nevertheless, it takes courage to go door-to-door on a religious mission because most people will refuse to talk to you, and many of them are downright rude. When I was a child, one of my older brothers would brag about having sicced the dog on the Jehovah's Witnesses when they came around, and, even as a child, I thought that over-the-top rude. Our dog wouldn't have actually hurt them, but could put on a show of barking and growling. I could sic the dog on one of my brothers, and he'd do the same thing.

I am polite to them when they come around. I don't waste their time anymore inviting them in to try to convert me because that isn't going to happen, but I admire their willingness to try.

I feel the same; it takes a LOT of courage to go door-to-door, especially nowadays. Last summer a JW walked up to us on a hot day while we were working in the front yard. My husband talked to him for a few minutes and got him a bottled water from the garage refrigerator, but he made it clear that we were not interested in his religion, and we were hot and tired. The man went on his way.

Also, my mother (and half my family) are Mormon. So you might say that I know quite a lot about Mormons; they are kind and generous people. My father (not Mormon) had many theological arguments with his brothers-in-law over the years, but no one got heated about it.
 
I guess if one’s congregation is worshipping and praising God, seeking and speaking the truth regarding the Gospel, fellowshipping and uplifting one another, encourages evangelizing and has a method of teaching and preparing others for ministry including Baptism, then I’d say that it’s going in the right direction.

Still, I do believe that with the advent of congregationalism, (1700’s) there are so many distinct divisions in the body of Christ that it leaves some to wonder what happened to Grace, through faith. (Eph. 2:8-9)
The early church had it’s problems too especially since it wasn’t until the council of Jerusalem ( around 50AD) that non-Jewish believers were even allowed to participate with Jewish believers in service gatherings but that was over 2000 years ago.

Now, each sect or denomination is autonomous and depending on the denomination, unless you’re counted as being among them you might be facing Hell, or so I’ve been told…..several times by well meaning participants.
What day is the Sabbath, or do I fold my hands when I pray or kneel or go face down; when I get Baptized do I get sprinkled or dunked or can I wear a cross necklace or what about the Gifts of the Holy Spirit (speaking in tongues, healing etc) as examples?

Frankly, all the above are nothing but works and if one isn’t worshipping the Father with one’s mind, body, soul and strength and added to that with a heart that belongs solely to the Father through Christ Jesus our Lord, it doesn’t make a difference what the church does because again,
“For your Salvation is by Grace, through Faith; It is a gift of God and not of yourselves nor of works lest any man can boast” (Eph. 2:8-9)
In other words, you ain’t gonna work your way into heaven albeit Jesus, James, Paul and others all taught that our works do show others who and what we are.

Lastly for now: .Proverbs 3:5-6, Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not unto your own understanding: but in all thy ways, acknowledge Him and He will direct thy path.
 
If any door to door religion peddling person wants to listen, that is one thing, but if they want to do all the talking and questioning, then I have no interest in discussing their beliefs, creeds, or dogma.

All I can say is if these cult religions work for you, great, but don't come to my door with a closed mind and be rude when I tell you I am not interested. If anyone tells them they are not interested and they still keep talking and trying to hand you their propaganda, then I consider that rude and bring their attention to my no soliciting sign. Then they want to argue they weren't soliciting. I say well show me your drivers license or other ID and I will file trespass against you, so next time you come, I will have you arrested and you can be a martyr. Discuss soliciting with the judge!

Of course they never show ID, so I take a photo of them with my cell phone. I also have them on my Ring that documents time. The same ones never come again. They just sent more. Why? If my answer is no, not interested, do they think a fresh set of brainwashed cultist will change my mind?

It makes me sick how they try and act the victim when they are the aggressive ones.

I don't want to be part of any church, organization, group, religion, or club that, repeatedly and purposely violates others rights claiming their actions are sanctioned by God.
 
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I suppose with my post that I got off the ongoing vein of thought which is the method of evangelizing by some denominations so here’s my take.

Come one, come all.
Perhaps I might be taken as being extremely [ maybe even overly ] confident in my beliefs but I don’t have a problem with folks who feel the need to knock on my door for the purpose of spreading their version of the Gospel.
Call me lazy but one keen aspect about people knocking on my door is that I don’t have to go and knock on their door. Ready-made evangelizing if you will.

Then, there’s also the aspect of being given an additional opportunity to practice a little Malachi 3:15-17. Granted, one has to value the historical context of the verses but still, I’m sure God enjoys being spoken of with love even if the two of His children who are speaking have different methods of showing it.
Personally, I’d rather be remembered by God as being one who follows the second commandment of Jesus which is to “Love your neighbor as you love yourself.” (Mark 12:31)
I know, it’s shameful that I, all too often, have fallen short on that commandment but with age and prayer, I’m getting better at it.

Just a note:
Seriously though, the very best place to meet people, volunteer, serve, spread the Gospel and yes, invite them to one’s church is in a Gospel Rescue Mission.
If the mission already has a “Christ based Program” going on, so much the better.
There are thousands of homeless people going through those programs for a year or so each and come out of the program clean and ready to rejoin society with a more meaningful attitude but sad to say, many do not have a loving church family to receive them.
Church teams go to those missions every night of the week and preach the Gospel but I have personally witnessed some of those teams showing a reluctance when it comes to nurturing a new babe in Christ.
Some churches are fantastic and want to see that child grow in Christ but others…..not so much.
 
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Too much of an emphasis is being placed on going door-to-door. I named the Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, and some Pentecostal churches as examples of ways in which some churches or denominations are evangelizing, and particularly those in which regular members are doing the evangelizing rather than paid staff. But I talked more about the New Testament Church and the fact that they used several methods. As @Bobby Cole suggests, rescue missions are a great way of doing that, as are other programs designed to reach people in need.

A problem with the way this is being done with many church bodies is that they leave the evangelizing part of it out. I am familiar with some church groups that have strong programs that deal with feeding the poor, but they are proud of the fact that they are meeting their immediate needs and not trying to convert them. That's fine. I have no problem with someone feeding the poor if that's something they're interested in doing, but it's not evangelizing - it's a social program.

Even in New Testament times, not everyone stood in front of crowds of people preaching the Good News; a lot of people simply witnessed to their friends, neighbors, and family members. There are always exceptions, but most people who consider themselves Christians don't even do that. Instead, they think that's the pastor's job, that of the ministry team, or anyone but them; and, for the most part, Christian churches don't expect any more.

Charlie Kirk had a way of ministry that closely resembled some of the things that were done by the Early Church, but it became political, and eventually became mostly political. Turning Point USA wasn't intended to be political. Its early bylaws specifically stated that it was not a political organization. His point was to get people to think, and eventually to think about some of the important things, such as salvation, or at least to consider that Christianity isn't that weird. But as often happens, politics took it over, and the organization is now basically an arm of the Republican Party. I'm not saying that's a bad thing; only that it represents a diversion.

There are countless ways in which people can do their part to fulfill the Great Commission. Some people are well-suited for some of these ways, while others are more suited for others.

I sense a great deal of disdain for people who go door to door preaching, but both the Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses have had a great deal of success with it. Yes, most people will turn them away, and more than a few will be rude, but others will listen, and, among those, some will be persuaded. It builds on itself.

For the most part, in any given church, there may be a hired pastor or pastors, perhaps some other paid staff, and a very small number of others who accomplish various tasks, such as teaching Sunday School or doing maintenance stuff around the church, although many churches have paid people to do that, too. Church members are an audience of people who are encouraged to contribute money and perhaps to invite others to church, where the real work of the church is accomplished, when it is accomplished, by paid staff.
 
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