Reindeer Question

Discussion in 'Holidays & Traditions' started by Steve North, Dec 20, 2023.

  1. Von Jones

    Von Jones Supreme Member
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    I wonder what other works Major Henry Livingston, Jr. has written; has he made any challenges of authorship, if so, why wasn't there been a big stink about it back then, inquiring minds want to know? :rolleyes: John B. these are just thoughts going around in my head. Were Livingston and Moore acquainted, if so maybe Moore picked up a few Dutch things from him. It definitely would make a fictional character feel relatable in a story or poem - look at Frosty the Snowman. heh, heh, heh.
     
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  2. Yvonne Smith

    Yvonne Smith Senior Staff
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    One of the earliest things that I remember from Christmas was hearing Gene Autry singing Rudolph, the Red-Nosed Reindeer. I was probably around 3-4 years old, and didn’t yet know the word “history”.
    I thought he was singing “you’ll go down in his story” instead of history.

    Naturally, I wondered how I would go down in Rudolph’s story, so I asked my mom how that could happen.
    It took her a little bit of me explaining what I thought the song said, before she understood my question; so then she had to explain to me what the word history meant, and that this was what the song was saying.
    I liked it better the first way……
     
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  3. Mary Stetler

    Mary Stetler Veteran Member
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    OK, But what do Donner and Blitzen mean?:rolleyes:
     
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  4. Nancy Hart

    Nancy Hart Supreme Member
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    Thunder and Lightning (see post by @Von Jones) :cool:
     
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  5. John Brunner

    John Brunner Senior Staff
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    Moore lived from 1779-1863
    Livingston lived from 1748-1828
    So their lives in New York certainly overlapped, but Livingston was 31 years the elder and passed away at the age of 80 when Moore was 49. So I would assume that were not contemporaries...but I don't really know.

    The attribution to Moore didn't even come up until 14 years after the publication of the anonymous poem (11 years after Livingston's death), and even then it was raised by some 3rd party in a book of poetry. Perhaps the poem did not become all that well-known until after Livingston's death...he was 75 when it was published and died 5 years later (which was 8 years before the Moore attribution was made.)

    The question of who really wrote it was first raised pretty recently by a college professor who is our age, and may have been raised just to draw attention to himself. The professor's specialty was investigating well-known works and questioning their authorship. The professor "retired" when someone successfully sued him for defamation in connection with one of his assertions.
     
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  6. Mary Stetler

    Mary Stetler Veteran Member
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    Dunder and Blixem means thunder and lightning.
     
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  7. Nancy Hart

    Nancy Hart Supreme Member
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    I'm sorry, Mary. I misunderstood. Thought you just missed it. I think that's the way a lot of new words are formed. From changes in verbal pronunciation of older European words over generations. Easier to say. Later written the way they are pronounced.
     
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  8. John Brunner

    John Brunner Senior Staff
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    So you're asking what "Donner" and "Blitzen" mean?

    Well, The Donnor Party is known to most of us here, so I imagine the other reindeer never asked "What's eating you?"

    And Blitzen is a German state of being on Christmas Eve...which is why Rudolph is the lead reindeer.

    [​IMG]
     
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  9. John Brunner

    John Brunner Senior Staff
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    But the interesting thing is that they were changed from the way the poem was written when it was first put in the paper. I imagine there may be an interesting story there as to who did that and why.

    I just discovered that "Donner" means "to give" in French, sort of like our word "donor."
    And "Blitzen" is German for "flash."

    I have no idea if that's what the typesetter had in mind, or why French & German were OK but Dutch was not.
     
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  10. Steve North

    Steve North Supreme Member
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    And i always thought there were only 2 reindeer.....

    Rudolph and Olive...... According to the song....

    Rudolph the red nose reindeer, ..... had a very shiny nose...
    Olive the other reindeer...

    There you go............ ONLY 2 REINDEER .................
     
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  11. Von Jones

    Von Jones Supreme Member
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    @John Brunner I just read that Livingston did 'claim' that he wrote the poem before he died but had no proof.

    There are two things about this (1) He did keep a lot of his works but why not that one (2) Him being up in age, as we all do, probably just said it and that was it - just acknowledging was enough.

    With that being said, being a person who loves to read poetry and write a little I would entertain the thought 'I wish I wrote that.' because I really liked it. Maybe Livingston felt that way too.
     
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  12. John Brunner

    John Brunner Senior Staff
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    Interesting. I still think Livingston has a case with the Dutch reindeer names on the original poem.
     
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  13. Steve North

    Steve North Supreme Member
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    Hey you guys..............
    How come non of you have mentioned the reindeer named...... OLIVE ...????
     
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  14. Von Jones

    Von Jones Supreme Member
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    Who is Olive? Never heard of Olive the reindeer.
     
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  15. Mary Stetler

    Mary Stetler Veteran Member
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    Racists?
     
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