Immigration Imponderables

Discussion in 'Politics & Government' started by Frank Sanoica, Jul 6, 2018.

  1. Frank Sanoica

    Frank Sanoica Veteran Member
    Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2016
    Messages:
    5,795
    Likes Received:
    5,323
    Some folks running for office here in Arizona are pledging to "build the wall". I'm thinking the Arizona/Mexico border is about 350 miles long, maybe 400. I asked my wife what she thought might be deterrent enough, given a wall, height, strength, etc. She says it will be covered with razor-wire and possibly electrified.

    Consider that great numbers of folks enter our country illegally, and thus must be very careful not to be detected. Many have perished attempting to cross these Deserts. So, some years back, groups of "bleeding-hearts" sought legislation requiring that "watering stations" be built to avoid deaths by dehydration. Dunno if they built them; consider the stupidity of it though: Where would the cops be waiting for illegals? Those folks would likely avoid the watering holes knowing full-well...........Ridiculous idea.

    So, given AZ gets it's wall, what proportion of the crossings will simply move over to Texas? Then, Texas needs a wall, too. Given that we get the wall, what is to keep it from being breached in one way or another? Holes cut, dynamited, tunnels underneath, you can no better keep them out than stop drugs from flowing illegally, IMO.

    Razorwire will result in lawsuits, as will electrification. After all, the lawyers sought, and GOT, state-subsidized car insurance for those folks unable to afford it who must drive to work, legal or not!

    Yet another thought struck me today heavily defeating the wall idea: how many thousands of land animals depend on crossing the border to sustain themselves? How many would die being unable to? Real imponderable, that, which I have nowhere seen addressed.
    Frank
     
    #1
    Patsy Faye likes this.
  2. Ken Anderson

    Ken Anderson Greeter
    Moderator Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2015
    Messages:
    10,382
    Likes Received:
    14,182
    They built them and, I believe, under Obama they didn't want to hinder anyone's access to water so they pointedly did not hang out in those areas.

    That's the liberal answer to anything they don't want to do. We don't have complete or permanent solutions to very many things in our lives, do we?

    Shall we remove all laws prohibiting murder? After all, no amount of laws are going to keep people from killing one another?

    You have walls, doors, and locks on your house. Why? Don't you know that people could still get in if they wanted to? Burglary shouldn't be a crime anyhow, given that laws don't prevent it from happening.

    Child molestation has been against the law for a long time, yet we have laws against it. Why?

    We build walls because they will stop the free flow of traffic across our border. Walls will make crossing our borders illegally more difficult, more expensive, and less likely to succeed. Where we have walls, we have fewer crossings.
     
    #2
  3. Frank Sanoica

    Frank Sanoica Veteran Member
    Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2016
    Messages:
    5,795
    Likes Received:
    5,323
    @Ken Anderson
    Then you are in favor of the wall? Your last sentence implies data is available; I'm wondering where those walls are, how long are they, how impenetrable, and what are the "dues" for doing so? How long was the Berlin Wall, where many folks attempting to escape East Berlin were summarily killed by Police?
    Frank
     
    #3
    Bobby Cole likes this.
  4. Patsy Faye

    Patsy Faye Veteran Member
    Registered

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2015
    Messages:
    9,732
    Likes Received:
    10,817
    Its a tough one Frank - 'something' has got to be done
    We need a huge brain (someone must possess one) that can solve this problem
     
    #4
  5. Don Alaska

    Don Alaska Very Well-Known Member
    Registered

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2018
    Messages:
    1,527
    Likes Received:
    2,228
    A wall seems to work for Israel. Terrorism there has dropped dramatically since they built a wall.
     
    #5
  6. Bobby Cole

    Bobby Cole Veteran Member
    Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2015
    Messages:
    2,583
    Likes Received:
    4,749
    Hummmm....animal crossings. Interesting.
    Okay, we put doggie doors on the bottom of the walls for the smaller things like snakes, bugs, rabbits and reptiles.
    Then, we build special gates for the larger animals. Just like having designated deer crossings, they can put signs up directing all the animals to go to the special gate so they can proceed as they normally would.

    I imagine the signs would have to written in Spanish and English so the animals from the south could understand where their gate is but the only problem I see with that is maybe some animals can’t read or aren’t careful like the deer that get hit by cars because they don’t use the deer crossings.

    Oh yeah, the animals that have health problems can go to the vet clinics we set up on our side of the gate and we can also have regular feeding stations to help them along the way.

    Of course, the government would run the whole thing which would make all of us feel better because we all know how efficient the government does things.

    Just having a little “valley boy” fun at Peta’s and the EPA’s expense, but, could it actually happen?
     
    #6
    Frank Sanoica and Don Alaska like this.
  7. Ken Anderson

    Ken Anderson Greeter
    Moderator Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2015
    Messages:
    10,382
    Likes Received:
    14,182
    According to this, we're paying more for immigrant births than we would for a border wall. -- Washington Times
     
    #7
  8. Martin Alonzo

    Martin Alonzo Veteran Member
    Registered

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2015
    Messages:
    3,184
    Likes Received:
    2,987
    The military has drones that could easily patrol the border. The military also has nonfatal deterrence that could be used to stop people without hurting anyone. There are many ways of fixing the problem. A wall will slow down people.
     
    #8
    Bobby Cole likes this.
  9. Ken Anderson

    Ken Anderson Greeter
    Moderator Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2015
    Messages:
    10,382
    Likes Received:
    14,182
    You have seen the way that people push their way in even when Border Patrol is there. Unless you're talking about weaponizing these drones and imagining a willingness to gun down droves of people, all the drones would do is detect them. Someone standing on the bridge in Brownsville, Texas can detect the illegals crossing the river, but that doesn't stop them. There are no easy ways of stopping them, and there are probably no reasonable ways of stopping them altogether but a wall will stop most of them and slow the others down, to a point where Border Patrol agents might be able to be effective. The other thing we're looking for is something that will still be there if the Democrats take control again. Policies change depending on who is in power, and allowing millions of illegals to enter the country every time the Democrats have a majority is not a healthy outcome.
     
    #9
  10. Peter Renfro

    Peter Renfro Member
    Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2018
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    28
    Kick this around a while. Technology is cheap. Create a temporary work authority. Kind of like the braceros Create a retina scan on each prospective worker. All counties have a workforce development board, all hiring would be done through them. Any employer hiring an undocumented person would receive massive crippling fines,(not the cost of doing business charge they use now), and face criminal charges.
    Every foreigner with a visa reports to a government office(post office?) every two weeks.
    Require under penalty of law that schools and universities report if a foreign national under their purview is out of compliance with his visa requirement.
     
    #10
    Frank Sanoica and Bobby Cole like this.
  11. Ken Anderson

    Ken Anderson Greeter
    Moderator Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2015
    Messages:
    10,382
    Likes Received:
    14,182
    That's been tried before, actually. Oddly enough, the Clinton Administration instituted sharp penalties against any employer found to employ people who didn't have work permits. Not long afterward, the Labor Department of the same Clinton Administration enforced strong penalties against these same employers for asking for documentation, calling that discrimination. So while there were penalties for hiring illegals, they were not allowed to ask if someone was legal. The whole thing fell apart within a couple of years. Policies only last as long as there are people willing and able to enforce them.

    That would be even worse today when we have cities and states that will issue identification cards and driver's licenses to illegals.
     
    #11
    Bobby Cole and Don Alaska like this.
  12. Martin Alonzo

    Martin Alonzo Veteran Member
    Registered

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2015
    Messages:
    3,184
    Likes Received:
    2,987
  13. Shirley Martin

    Shirley Martin Veteran Member
    Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2015
    Messages:
    11,716
    Likes Received:
    6,265
  14. Maggie Mae

    Maggie Mae Active Member
    Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2018
    Messages:
    84
    Likes Received:
    215
    Build the wall .. razor wire the top ... electrify it .. pressure sensitive exploding devices .. cameras with guns that can be fired remotely ... no watering stations .. no mercy.

    Who cares about lawsuits .. what gives these morons the right to sue? They are NOT legal .. they are breaking our laws.

    Thanks to the prior administration they have been encouraged to come on down for free prizes .. BS !!!

    This country needs to wake up and take care of our own first.

    Our elderly and Veterans are suffering but the illegals are all very well taken care of.

    We have laws and rules .. why bother if we aren't going to enforce them.

    Criminals are not welcome .. and every single one of them who cross illegally are a criminal .. and that includes all sexes and ages.

    We waste so much money catering to these leeches. Can't feel sorry for them one bit ... if they want pity and or help .. then do it the right way.

    Somehow they manage to come up with $$$ to pay to have someone get them here illegally .. spend that money doing it right.

    mad.png
     
    #14
  15. Cody Fousnaugh

    Cody Fousnaugh Veteran Member
    Registered

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2015
    Messages:
    4,717
    Likes Received:
    3,495
    Go get 'em, Maggie Mae!!:D Two LARGE "thumbs up" for this post!!
     
    #15
  16. Martin Alonzo

    Martin Alonzo Veteran Member
    Registered

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2015
    Messages:
    3,184
    Likes Received:
    2,987
    Most of us agree with you Maggie but are to timid to talk like that. Go get them Maggie
     
    #16
    Frank Sanoica likes this.
  17. Shirley Martin

    Shirley Martin Veteran Member
    Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2015
    Messages:
    11,716
    Likes Received:
    6,265
    But what about the children?
     
    #17
  18. Babs Hunt

    Babs Hunt Veteran Member
    Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2016
    Messages:
    7,318
    Likes Received:
    9,313
    I definitely think the Wall should be built, but I do not think it will stop immigrants from coming in...just slow them down some.

    This is a really hard subject for me to discuss because along with decent people who are coming in to have a better life for them and their families, I know that there are a lot of bad people coming in too. I think the answer doesn't really lie in building the wall but in making a better way for good families to come in legally and to weed out the bad ones and refuse them entrance.

    I don't think any other Country has the freedom and opportunity that America has and I can see why people want to come and have that same freedom and opportunity too. I don't agree with illegal entry...but I understand that desperation can make a person do whatever it takes to take care of their families.

    A wall will slow them down...but really the whole immigration system in place needs to be overhauled so that people know they have a chance to come in legally.
     
    #18
  19. Don Alaska

    Don Alaska Very Well-Known Member
    Registered

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2018
    Messages:
    1,527
    Likes Received:
    2,228
    According to the latest hub-bub, the children need to be confined with their parents and the drug pushers and the sexual deviants. It is only fair. A couple of administrations back, they were criticized for imprisoning the children with their parents as that exposed the kids to all kinds of dangers, now, since it is Trump, they now MUST be held in adult cells with their parent...if their parents even came with them. Originally, the children were separated from the adults because a 15-year-old was gang-raped while being imprisoned with her parents in adult custody. How could parents protect children when there are gang members and perverts by the hundreds imprisoned with them?
     
    #19
  20. Martin Alonzo

    Martin Alonzo Veteran Member
    Registered

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2015
    Messages:
    3,184
    Likes Received:
    2,987
    What about the children should they be thrown in jail with the parents that did something illegal or should they be kept separate. Do we give these children to anyone who said that they are the parents when there is child trafficking is happening. So Shirley what do you think put them in jail with their parents or give them to child traffickers
     
    #20
    Bobby Cole and Ken Anderson like this.
  21. Shirley Martin

    Shirley Martin Veteran Member
    Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2015
    Messages:
    11,716
    Likes Received:
    6,265
    I don't know. That's why I asked you.
     
    #21
    Martin Alonzo and Frank Sanoica like this.
  22. Martin Alonzo

    Martin Alonzo Veteran Member
    Registered

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2015
    Messages:
    3,184
    Likes Received:
    2,987
    It is a tough question is it not Shirley
     
    #22
  23. Ken Anderson

    Ken Anderson Greeter
    Moderator Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2015
    Messages:
    10,382
    Likes Received:
    14,182
    The walls, doors, and locks on your house don't prevent people from coming in if they are determined to do so, but they help tremendously. Laws against murder don't prevent people from being murdered, yet we need laws against murder. A wall would slow the flow down to a point where it will be more manageable. There are no perfect answers to anything but that should never prevent us from seeking a better answer.

    No one, or very few people anyhow, are talking about stopping all immigration. Legal means of immigrating to the United States would continue.
     
    #23
    Bobby Cole and Frank Sanoica like this.
  24. Yvonne Smith

    Yvonne Smith Greeter
    Moderator Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2015
    Messages:
    6,002
    Likes Received:
    8,971
    I have been reading about the caravan (as they are calling it) of people coming here from Honduras. It sounds like they are actually being paid to come here, and my guess is that it has something to do with more illegal voting in our upcoming elections, since Hillary already said that they were bringing in more illegals to get registered to vote, so they can help win the elections.
    So, our president contacted the governments of both Honduras and Guatemala, and he told them that it this caravan is not stopped and turned back, America will stop giving both countries any financial aid.
    The last that I read is that they are getting the people stopped. From looking at the picture, it appears to me that the whole caravan is young adult men, so definitely not refugee families.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...GbIgT5EOH1SNTEj5I7JLcoBDCA-dy8KMLT6HB83rPXKdY
     
    #24
    Bobby Cole and Frank Sanoica like this.
  25. Ken Anderson

    Ken Anderson Greeter
    Moderator Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2015
    Messages:
    10,382
    Likes Received:
    14,182
    The last large caravan was recruited by an American anti-border group so I expect this is the same. As far as I know, we never really learned what happened with the last group so I am assuming they got in.
     
    #25
    Bobby Cole and Frank Sanoica like this.

Share This Page