Who Has More Faith? Believers Or Atheists?

Discussion in 'Faith & Religion' started by Lara Moss, Oct 25, 2015.

  1. Lara Moss

    Lara Moss Very Well-Known Member
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    I believe no denomination and no church is perfect. Only the Bible is perfect. In my past I've attended several denominations but I don't belong to a "formal" religion. I'm a Christian. It's not a religion but is a relationship with God and Jesus Christ because I believe the Bible is God's true Word and I believe it's flawless. Anyone who thinks they have found a flaw in the Bible is welcome to post the scripture and I can put it in context and show you the truth. "Context" is the key word.
     
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  2. Bobby Cole

    Bobby Cole Very Well-Known Member
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    I am somewhat lost here and the topic question, "Who has more faith" is the root of it. The question is like asking "which is colder, tap water or rain"? It's an overview question that cannot be answered without certain parameters put into place. Such as: where? when? And for the original question another question arises as to who and when?

    Now, as to the direction that the topic has gone thus far, allow me to propose another question. Who believes we as humans have "thoughts". It's somewhat philosophical but on the other hand look at the science. Thought cannot be measured, seen, heard nor touched by man or any instrument known to man. Yet, we all agree that thought is a real process rather than random calculations based on present, past, and ancestral memory held in entangled DNA.
    Are we merely just carbon based protein processing millisecond calculations throughout our lives or is there something more? Do we really exist as free thinking human beings? One should certainly hope so but the object of appreciation still exists that we belive something we cannot even fathom, namely thought.

    All have faith that we actually have free individual thoughts but cannot prove it and are faith filled that we do. Some have faith that there is a God, but live by faith that there truly is one no matter the reference point of religious bias as to Who God is.

    I have a tremendous amount of faith that my God is real and am sure that many have more faith than I the same as I have a tremendous amount of faith that I have free thoughts but beyond using a grouping of mathematical sets and subsets I cannot prove that either exists. I live by faith, and do not even think of Heaven or hell nor do I use my faith as a crutch of any kind yet I am not afraid of death.

    Now, do I have more faith than an atheist? Dunno. Which atheist?
     
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  3. Chrissy Cross

    Chrissy Cross Veteran Member
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    Which Bible is perfect?
     
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  4. Lara Moss

    Lara Moss Very Well-Known Member
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    Bobby, It's not a question of "which atheist". The title uses the plural form so we are talking about faith as groups of those who believe that either there is a God or groups that believe there isn't .

    The point of my thread was to make atheists aware that they also have "faith" and need a lot more faith than believers in God to believe that scientific theory is truth.
     
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  5. Chrissy Cross

    Chrissy Cross Veteran Member
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    @Bobby Cole , for some reason I couldn't insert quote but you said you aren't afraid to die.

    Neither am I and although Im not an athesist, maybe an agnostic, maybe still searching, nevertheless fear of hell or joy of heaven does not guide my life. My morals and my heart guide me...and if there is nothing when I die, so be it.

    I also believe that if there is a God, I am not going to hell anyway. What kind of God would banish a good person like me to hell?
     
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  6. Lara Moss

    Lara Moss Very Well-Known Member
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    "Which Bible is perfect?"
    Another good question Chrissy. There are different translations, all the more reason to pray first and ask God to reveal His truth to you. I have several translations and they are all good. But you have to be careful. God says beware of false prophets. It also helps to spend time with other believers discussing what you have read…as we are here :)
     
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  7. Chrissy Cross

    Chrissy Cross Veteran Member
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    Yes but one persons false prophet is another persons true prophet.

    Okay, I am done on religion for today. It's only 7:23 am and I'm getting a headache. :)
     
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  8. Lara Moss

    Lara Moss Very Well-Known Member
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    Not really. What's true can't also be false.
     
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  9. Chrissy Cross

    Chrissy Cross Veteran Member
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    Well, I learned that Catholic is the only TRUE religion and Mary is Holy. :)

    And although I'm an ex catholic there are many who are devout Catholics and would say and believe with all their heart and soul that they are right.
     
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  10. Lara Moss

    Lara Moss Very Well-Known Member
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    I can't speak for Catholics because I'm not one. I can only tell you what the Bible says about Mary, the mother of Jesus.

    Nowhere in Scripture does Jesus, or anyone else, direct any praise, glory, or adoration towards Mary. In Luke 1:42-44, Elizabeth praises Mary for the the blessing of giving birth to the Messiah but that wasn't based on any glory from Mary…it was a blessing from God. To God be the glory.

    Mary was present at the cross when Jesus died (John 19:25). Mary was also with the apostles on the day of Pentecost (Acts 1:14). However, Mary is never mentioned again after Acts chapter 1. The apostles did not give Mary a prominent role. Mary’s death is not recorded in the Bible. Nothing is said about Mary ascending to heaven or having an exalted role there. As the earthly mother of Jesus, Mary should be respected, but she is not worthy of our worship or adoration.

    The Bible nowhere indicates that Mary can hear our prayers or that she can mediate for us with God. Jesus is our only advocate and mediator in heaven (1 Timothy 2:5). If offered worship, adoration, or prayers, Mary would say the same as the angels: “Worship God!”…not Mary (see Revelation 19:10; 22:9.) Mary herself sets the example for us, directing her worship, adoration, and praise to God alone: “My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for He has been mindful of the humble state of His servant. From now on all generations will call me blessed, for the Mighty One has done great things for me — holy is His name” (Luke 1:46-49).
     
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  11. Chrissy Cross

    Chrissy Cross Veteran Member
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    Just one excerpt I found among many...

    And here is another Catholic favorite:

    Luke 1:41-43:
    “And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and she exclaimed with a loud cry, “BLESSED ARE YOU AMONG WOMEN, AND BLESSED IS THE FRUIT OF YOUR WOMB!! [emphasis added] And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?”

    Now, if Mary is “just another woman,” why would Elizabeth be in awe that she was granted a visit from “the mother of my lord?” It just doesn’t make sense that if Mary is any old person and not to be revered in some way that she is treated with such respect and has many honors bestowed upon her such as being “full of grace” and the other examples given.

    I'm not saying I believe this Lara, I'm just saying that every faith and person sees things differently.

    And just an immaculate conception would make her special and Holy if I believed that.
     
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  12. Chrissy Cross

    Chrissy Cross Veteran Member
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    I really can't defend or argue for Mary, Lara...I have forgotten most of what I have been taught anyway but growing up Catholic it's funny that the only prayer I still can recite without stumbling is the "Hail Mary" :)
     
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  13. Lara Moss

    Lara Moss Very Well-Known Member
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    I understand the confusion but we have to take the bible at it's word. The Bible is not the author of confusion. So the Bible easily clears this up. You may want to review my post again. I never said nor did the Bible say that "Mary is just another woman". I said she should be respected…just not worshipped because even Mary agrees in scripture the worshipping is only for God (see my last sentence). The Bible refers to Mary as a "humble" servant because that is a fulfillment of prophesy, that the Messiah would be born in a very humble way….not born of royalty or riches. To exalt Mary would remove her from that humble part of the prophesy which would tamper with God's perfect plan for the Messiah. God had a reason for wanting jesus to be born in a humble surrounding. He wanted Jesus to be humble like man in order for him to take on all of man's sins and suffer on the cross for man's salvation. It's an extremely important reason for keeping Mary on a humble level.

    Elizabeth was in awe that God chose Mary because she wasn't royalty…just a lowly humble human being. It WAS a blessing for Mary to be chosen by God to be and should be respected for that. I mean, how cool is that?!! But just cause it was cool doesn't mean she should take God's place in worship. Reread the last sentence to find what mary wants us all to do.
     
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  14. Chrissy Cross

    Chrissy Cross Veteran Member
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    But still a very large group of people (Catholics) say she is to be worshipped. She is Holy Mary, Mother if God.

    People can interpret the exact same thing so differently and have.
     
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  15. Sheldon Scott

    Sheldon Scott Very Well-Known Member
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    What is true cannot be false but what you believe to be true can be false.

    As for faith I have faith in my ability to think and use reason. When you are basing your faith on what someone else has written you are putting your faith in that persons thinking rather than your own.
     
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  16. Lara Moss

    Lara Moss Very Well-Known Member
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    I'm not basing my faith on the written word alone. My faith in the Bible is backed by reason, logic, answered prayers, accurate fulfillment of prophecies, miracles, historical accounts, archeological discoveries, science, and philosophy…all have shown scripture to be factual and consistent. More so than with any other religious text, we have assurance that the Bible is true. The combination of it's written consistency, connection to evidence, and relevance to our experience makes the Bible unique among books. All religious works claim to be true but, unlike any other religious work, the Bible emphatically supports that assertion.
     
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  17. Chrissy Cross

    Chrissy Cross Veteran Member
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    Reason and logic are what make me not believe the Bible, Lara. It was written sooooo long ago. I'm sure the translation we are quoting isnt even accurate.

    Anyway, it's the bible itself that causes me to not believe. I have a glimmer of hope that there is a spiritual something in humans but it also could be our evolved brains.
     
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  18. Lara Moss

    Lara Moss Very Well-Known Member
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    The Old Testament is difficult and intense some is only meant for the "Old Law". Although Psalms and proverbs are wonderful! I recommend the New Testament to start with. It's all relevant for today. The Book of John (not 1st and 2nd John at the end) is a great place to start. It comes after Luke. The King James Version is widely believed to be the most accurate translation. With that said, I prefer one with less thee's and thou's but still close to the King James Version. Once you finish the New Testament then you can go back and pick up at the beginning.

    When I wasn't a believer I started with the Book of John in the Bible. By the time I got to the end of Ephesians, I prayed that I was not perfect and in need of a savior and asked God to fill the void inside me….and he did….that was 1978 and I've been a believer ever since.

    The Bible gets a bad rap from atheists and agnostics which are the bulk of online chatrooms and forums so that's where you may be picking up your hesitation. SO is the exception. Whatever the reason though….saying a prayer before one begins reading each time helps reveal the truth in a personal way (if one asks for that). One's heart and mind need to be clean and open too….filled with the Holy Spirit (ask for that too). Eagerness to receive helps. New Christians are so thirsty for the truth and that's the best attitude ever. That's when things get really exciting and lives change for the better. :)
     
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  19. Chrissy Cross

    Chrissy Cross Veteran Member
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    Lol, the site went down after my last post. A sign from God to me. :)
     
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  20. Chrissy Cross

    Chrissy Cross Veteran Member
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    @Lara Moss , these have been my views before I even got on the internet. I'm not saying I don't appreciate the beauty and reverence of a lovely old church and I still can get teary eyed and goose bumps listening to a well known song from church but my main disbelief still comes from the Bible, I just can't trust the source. The bible has always been what caused me doubt because when I do look at the beauty and mystery of the universe it's hard to believe its random. But organized religion and the Bible always have me thinking otherwise.
     
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  21. Lara Moss

    Lara Moss Very Well-Known Member
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    I understand. I've enjoyed our discussion and thank you for all of your thoughtful questions. I always have fun discussing biblical scripture but I'm not trying to win anyone over. It's a personal choice :)
     
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  22. Sheldon Scott

    Sheldon Scott Very Well-Known Member
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    Reading the bible with an open mind is the surest way to becoming an atheist.
     
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  23. Chrissy Cross

    Chrissy Cross Veteran Member
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    Also thanks from me, @Lara Moss. I usually try to stay away from religion and politics but don't always succeed.

    Who knows? I'm a work in progress, maybe one day I can say a nice lady on a forum changed my views. :)
     
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  24. Terry Page

    Terry Page Very Well-Known Member
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    I come from a non religious background unlike some on here, neither of my parents attended church, and religion was never discussed, though my grandmother (on my fathers side) was religious to a degree and ensured I was confirmed into C of E, she also enrolled me as an altar boy at her local church. where I did get a taste for altar wine which they now sell in Russian shops, so I can relive those times. :rolleyes: I also liked wearing the white frock, but the religion just didn't rub off on me at all.

    I became an atheist during my teens, but eventually realised that atheism is simply another belief system, the polar opposite of a believer. I could no more prove the non-existence of god, than a believer can prove to me the existence of god.
    I simply don't know!!, so I live my life happily with no need of a faith or a belief, I wake up each morning grateful that I am still here, and one day I know there will be no more mornings, which is fine by me.

    I have spent the last couple of years in the company of several over 90 year olds, during their final days, who all expressed a tiredness of life and were ready to die. They were not religious nor did they want an afterlife or some sort of Nirvana, they drifted away in the end, and their death certificate simply recorded death from natural causes. I can imagine myself reaching that stage and simply wanting to die, my only wish would be for a painless quick death.

    Regarding religion itself I feel it adds a lot of colour to life with it's beautiful churches and cathedrals. During my travels in Asia since the 1980s I have experienced the joy and celebrations of the Hindu, Buddhist and some other sects that are practised there, I noticed their religion is their life, generally they don't study it, they live it and celebrate their deities, and the times when I joined in, I found their joy of life infectious, so I enjoyed it very much, but I didn't believe in it.

    In the UK and a lot of the western world, it seems to me religion is mainly about being good and getting repentance from sin, and obtaining a place in a heaven of some sort after death, this doesn't appeal to me at all as an observer, so I avoid getting involved in it.
    In saying that I have met some wonderful priests here, who get so much from their beliefs and I find them a delight to be around, so in a way I don't feel it makes much difference whether you do or don't believe in a deity or deities, as long as you are enjoying a fulfilling and peaceful life, as the saying goes "Variety is the Spice of Life"

    I have simply chosen a faithless path which has so far worked for me, and if I happen to wake up in a Nirvana one day, I will be eternally (presumably) grateful and maybe reconsider my position, albeit too late by then. :rolleyes:
     
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  25. Lara Moss

    Lara Moss Very Well-Known Member
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    Terry, I liked your definition of Atheism…"simply another belief system, the polar opposite of a believer. I could no more prove the non-existence of god, than a believer can prove to me the existence of god." I wouldn't exactly say the burden of proof is 50/50 but "Faith" is definitely present.

    So your an Agnostic….a person who doesn't have a definite belief in whether God exists or not.

    There was an elephant in your post though, a negative alternative not addressed in your last sentence. But I understand.
     
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