Thoughts On Trinity

Discussion in 'Faith & Religion' started by Sheldon Scott, Mar 16, 2016.

  1. Sheldon Scott

    Sheldon Scott Very Well-Known Member
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    This just doesn't make sense to me for a number of reasons.

    Do you believe in the Trinity? If so, why?
     
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  2. Chrissy Cross

    Chrissy Cross Veteran Member
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    No, I can believe in a supreme being and that's as far as I can go.
     
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  3. Bobby Cole

    Bobby Cole Very Well-Known Member
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    It a good question and an often asked question especially by those who are new to the Christian belief system.
    Just so I do not get too long winded and bore the heck out of everyone, here is a scenario that might whet the appetite a bit.
    Think first of yourself and those people around you. We are all one person but in truth we have three elements which make up that one person namely the Brain, body and spirit (mind). Each has it's own job to do but all three still make up a single entity.......the triune entity called man.

    Now, let's get the hard part out of the way. In the Judeo / Christian belief system we believe that we are made in the image of God. All of our basic attributes are in that image sans our physical bodies.
    We, are a small part of Him and share similar attributes as Him hence His and our mutual triune nature.

    The only thing, I believe, that upsets the apple cart when understanding the triune nature of God is the birth, crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus (Jeshua) the Christ and where the God / Man fits in.
    Jesus said it better than I ever could. "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father for I and the Father are one.". In essence, every man alive on earth can say exactly the same thing with only the mortality part being the issue. Indeed, if you have seen me you have seen my dad for we both share the same genetic makeup and even more so now since more about the quantum makeup of our humanity is being discovered.
    And to take it one step further, indeed, if you have seen me then you will have seen part of God for part of me is of Him also.

    Hope this helps a bit. It's pretty basic but if it helps get a handle on things then maybe we can continue further in greater length and make it even more palatable.
     
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  4. Sheldon Scott

    Sheldon Scott Very Well-Known Member
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    Sorry Bobby but it still doesn't make sense. o_O
     
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  5. Bobby Cole

    Bobby Cole Very Well-Known Member
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    That's alright @Sheldon Scott, again it gets confusing because we do have a tendency to over complicate things.
    Let's try this, but mind you, I will probably get a little flack over it.

    You're a guy, right? When you admire a lady, are you short sighted and just observe the body or do you study for a bit and like the whole package? Everything about her. She has a brain, she has a great spirit and the package ain't bad either!
    But, ..........she's only a single person but we just made her into three people!
    No, she's one person.
    No, I like all three parts of her so there's three!
    But, she's still only one person!
    But, when describing her if one part is less than totally desirable we say 2 out of 3 ain't bad so I definitely love those 2 parts but just like the one part so she's three......hmppphhh!

    Of course there's only one person and it would be asinine to say anything different but in essence that is what we have done with our singular creator.
    We do not Worship three gods but only one God with three definite attributes. He thinks, He has a fantastic Spirit and the package ain't bad either!

    That's way over simplified and again, I'll catch some flack over it for a seeming lack of reverence but then again I have heard of people getting in trouble for calling Him, "Daddy." (In deference to that I would say that if He is all a person has ever known as a father then maybe Daddy is much more reverent than some would take it, and above all, it's about the heart)
     
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  6. Sheldon Scott

    Sheldon Scott Very Well-Known Member
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    You're not very convincing Bobby. So you're say if that woman has a daughter, she and her daughter are the same person. I think the whole idea of a trinity is absurd. Even Christian denominations don't agree. Some insist on it while other Christian denominations don't believe it.
     
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  7. Bobby Cole

    Bobby Cole Very Well-Known Member
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    Uh........man created denominations. But, all things said I'm sorry I couldn't help you out Sheldon. If it's the trinity that is holding up your thoughts of a creator just this once cancel out the trinity (temporarily) and just go for the creator. After that things seem to clear up a bit. You already do not worry about what people think in regard to Theism as opposed to Atheism so why worry about why people worship this way or that way?
    Personally, I do not push my beliefs on anyone because although I truly do love everyone on this earth (but do not like a whole bunch) I am not responsible for anyone else's choices. I simply try to point the way to God and after that I keep things as simple as I can.
    I can't tell you how many times someone else's explanations and examples were better than mine for a particular person of different understanding. We all comprehend things on different levels and sometimes it takes a different person to properly approach your level of understanding and or acceptance.
    That's why I generally do not get into Theological fights.

    Just because we do not understand the German mechanic and the way he fixes cars doesn't mean that he does not exist and we won't let him fix the BMW.

    Note: On a macro physical level, no, a daughter and mother are not the same person. On a quantum level, they are more the same person than one can even imagine but, that is still thinking in human terms. I only gave a loose example which is why I said I could get whacked for using it because it doesn't fully explain the spiritual world.
    Like we are told in our guide book: We do not even understand our world and yet we worry about understanding the (spiritual world) kingdom of God.
     
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  8. Sheldon Scott

    Sheldon Scott Very Well-Known Member
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    I wasn't looking for help, I was merely wondering why some people believe what they do:confused:. Try my next question.:eek:
     
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  9. Von Jones

    Von Jones Very Well-Known Member
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    @Bobby Cole I understood everything you said in every way you said it.;)
     
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  10. Ina I. Wonder

    Ina I. Wonder Very Well-Known Member
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    @Bobby Cole , this is a point that confuses me as well. But I did get a better feel for what you're trying to impart in your second example.

    Some times just the idea of religion can feel like an assault, depending on your introduction to it, and this can produce a barrier that is very hard to get past. Your ability to take your beliefs and restate them in an analogy that had no ties to any religion makes it easier to except your point. This ability allows me the chance of hearing what your trying to help me understand.
     
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  11. Bobby Cole

    Bobby Cole Very Well-Known Member
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    Yup, I realize that you aren't looking for spiritual help Sheldon. You are pretty much set in your ways and I'm pretty sure that nothing I can refer to or write will change that.
    But, I too have a question for you. Have you ever had to interview someone over a job application and if yes, what are the criterias you use to establish a good hire?
     
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  12. Terry Page

    Terry Page Very Well-Known Member
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    I accept the trinity explanation, we are all composed of mind body and spirit I believe, and if you buy into the whole religious concept, then it would make sense I feel?
     
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  13. Sheldon Scott

    Sheldon Scott Very Well-Known Member
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    No I haven't been in a position to interview people for a job. However my criteria would be job history and performance, honesty, ability, integrity, and references. Of course you can't learn all these things about a person from an interview but you can get a feel about the person. None of the requirements mentioned have anything to do with a religion.

    I'm pretty sure I won't be changing your ideas either Bobby.
     
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  14. Ken Anderson

    Ken Anderson Veteran Member
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    The concept of the Trinity is not one that we are capable of understanding, I think. In fact I believe that this is why the doctrine of the Trinity is not very well documented in the Bible. The one passage that most clearly spells out the Trinity of God - the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is not found in the earlier manuscripts, and may have been added later by someone wanting to firm up a belief in the Trinity, as that has been a hot button issue during the history of the Christian church, of the kind where someone might be burned at the stake for giving the wrong answer.

    I have an acquaintance in the Amish community who was shunned for several months simply because he questioned the doctrine of the Trinity. He had read a book that suggested that there was no such thing and asked questions of some of the church leaders. I'll explain shunning in another thread, if there's any interest. I am not Amish but I am very familiar with their beliefs.

    However, while no word in the Bible translates into Trinity, there are enough passages in the Scripture that make that implication that I do believe in the Trinity, but I do not believe that an understanding of the Trinity is essential to salvation. The Christian writer, A.W. Tozer, referred to the Trinity as "an incomprehensible mystery" and said that attempts to understand it must remain "forever futile."

    For example, I wouldn't suggest that quantum physics is a lot of nonsense just because I don't understand it. There are those who have a much better understanding of it than I do, but I expect there are still things to be learned.

    Although we are told that we are made in the image of God, an image is not the actual thing, and I believe that the totality of God is so vastly different from us that there are no words that would allow us to figure Him out. I do believe that God does exist as three separate beings, which are combined in a manner in which we are incapable of understanding. As human beings, we are inclined to want to understand things, and often unwilling to accept ideas that don't make any sense to us, but I do believe that God is so vastly complex that we are incapable of getting anything other than a simplified idea as to what He is.

    These explanations are published in Bible commentaries and Bible dictionaries, and into the creeds of various Christian denominations, and people feel as if they understand it, thus satisfying the human urge for things to make sense. But I don't think we can come even close to truly understanding the nature of God.
     
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    Last edited: Mar 17, 2016
  15. Bobby Cole

    Bobby Cole Very Well-Known Member
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    Quite right my friend, neither of us will be changing but the questions are good. Whether or not you personally grasp or adhere to an idea, it does give an opportunity for others to gain a greater understanding because of your questions and for that I give you thanks.

    About the interview thing. You admit that each person you might interview has a number of attributes making up that potential hiree. You wouldn't hire on just looks, or a person's character or whatever, but you would hire based on the whole makeup of the person. But, you admit that each person is made up of several elements do you not? If not, then we just hire 'em when they flock through the door because after all, without those elements that make up a person then all that is left is a mass of carbon based material.

    Similar to @Terry Pages analysis, if we believe in a god, any god, then we have to believe he or she is divided into more than one element in order to make up the whole.
     
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  16. Chrissy Cross

    Chrissy Cross Veteran Member
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    Yes, if you believe in a God, then everything attributed to him would be believable wether you understand it or not.
     
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  17. Babs Hunt

    Babs Hunt Veteran Member
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    God is Spirit. The simplicity of the Trinity is God the Spirit coming down to earth in the form of flesh (His Beloved Son Jesus Christ) to offer us the gift of reunification (salvation) with Him (which our sins had destroyed). That flesh containing the Spirit of God was crucified, died, and was resurrected to heaven. What God left as proof that He had come down to earth was and is His Holy Spirit which lives in all of those who have believed and received the gift of salvation.
     
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  18. Karen McKenzie

    Karen McKenzie Well-Known Member
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    I believe in the Trinity. When Jesus was baptized..the Holy Spirit descended as a dove, and God spoke from heaven. I believe they are all united in purpose but distinctly different as well..which Is probably enough to say. I do agree it is not an easy thing to comprehend. I have more questions than answers,

    I believe we are purposely not meant or expected to understand some things. I would be arrogant to think I could totally explain God or Trinity to anyone. I do, however, feel that God is not hidden from anyone who seeks Him :)
     
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  19. Bobby Cole

    Bobby Cole Very Well-Known Member
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    I waited for a while to see what other answers might transpire because the question posed is indeed a good exercise for all believers.
    The question posed by @Sheldon Scott was not "What" we believe but "Why" we believe in or on the trinity.

    Of course, we could just stymie the whole matter by saying that we live by FAITH, for indeed we do for we live by faith in all things both heaven and earth.
    We believers do believe that: In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, the Word was God, the same was with God in the beginning. (Jn. 1:1) and, The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us (Jn 1:14)
    For believers it is natural and instinctive that all that we live by and whom we worship is an act of faith but nonetheless this act of faith is true to us.

    Now, as an example, there is undoubtedly a chair made of wood in your home. You sit on it, move it, and maybe even (shudder) lean back and balance on the back two legs. You do this without even questioning as to whether or not when you sit that it will not crash in pieces and you wind up on the floor.
    We do the above without once questioning why the chair will not crash, but is that a good thing to do? Should we not examine, every once in a while WHY the chair will hold us up? Can you explain why the chair will not fail?
    Truth be told, probably not at present but if a little study were to be applied then some grasp of it's engineering might be had even if a total understanding is not forthcoming. The end result is we know not only *what* but a little of the *why.*

    Not even a microcosm of the trinity can be explained for we know not all of the whys and what's but the best we can do is to attempt to put them, the trinity and all Biblical study into layman terminology so that once someone does question the "why we believe" we can give them something that they might be able to grasp, however small it might be.

    We believers are told to "test and question" all things, and also to "study to show ourselves approved" so questioning our own why's is a relevant and beautiful question. God did not make us with blank brains only filled with the things He wants us to know but gave us the urge to know Him better each step we take toward being better men and women of God.

    "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: And be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:" ( 1Peter 3:15 )
     
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  20. Babs Hunt

    Babs Hunt Veteran Member
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    1 John 5:7

    “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”

    King James Version (KJV)

    Yes. @Sheldon Scott I do believe in the Trinity. I'm trying not to use a lot of Scripture when I post in a discussion but in this case I have to use the above one because it clearly states that the Trinity is the Father, Son (Word), and Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost). Christians believe what the Bible says because we believe it is God speaking to us. If you are a Christian then believing what God says comes first by faith, and then by the wisdom and discernment (understanding) that the Holy Spirit gives us to know God's Truth. It isn't just a truth based only on our faith, but it is a living, breathing part of each Chrisitian once they have accepted Christ as their Savior. The Holy Spirit living within us opens our eyes and ears to God's Truth and to our understanding the Word of God written in the Bible.

    If you're not a believer who has asked Christ to be your Savior, then you also don't have the Holy Spirit living within you to give you that wisdom and understanding of spiritual things and truths. God is Spirit and Truth. And when He lives within you through the Holy Spirit then the Holy Spirit opens your spiritual eyes and ears to see and hear God's Truth.

    One Bible teacher used the example of an apple or an egg to show how the Trinity works. The apple is made up of 3 parts: core, meat, and peel, yet that apple is one apple. The egg is yolk, white and shell ... 3 parts but still one egg.
     
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  21. Chrissy Cross

    Chrissy Cross Veteran Member
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    But what about the people that were believers and had the wisdom and truth living in them and then became non believers much later in life?
     
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  22. Babs Hunt

    Babs Hunt Veteran Member
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    Some might say those were never true believers to begin with Chrissy, but if they were really true believers and had the Holy Spirit living within them then either He is still there or they have decided with their free will they don't want God's free gift of salvation and eternal life after all. God won't take that gift away from you...but you always have the free will to tell Him you don't want it. If you do this...then you have also asked the Holy Spirit to go away too.
     
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  23. Chrissy Cross

    Chrissy Cross Veteran Member
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    It's not about not wanting it. I think most non believers who were believers to start with have just accepted science over religion.
     
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  24. Babs Hunt

    Babs Hunt Veteran Member
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    Each person has been given the gift of free will by God to believe in Him and His Truth or not. They also are given the choice of accepting His free gift of salvation and eternal life through His Beloved Son Jesus Christ. God won't force anyone to believe or accept these things. Having that free will gives people the right to choose to accept and believe in whatever they choose and so if anyone chooses to accept Science, or anything else over God's Truth...they have that freedom to do so. If anyone wants God and the gifts He offers them....God is there waiting patiently for them to turn to... or back to Him...

    Science and other things may offer some things...but salvation and eternal life come only through Jesus Christ.
     
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    Last edited: Mar 21, 2016
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  25. Chrissy Cross

    Chrissy Cross Veteran Member
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    That's good enough for me. :)
     
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