The Pope Versus The Donald

Discussion in 'Politics & Government' started by Lara Moss, Feb 19, 2016.

  1. Lara Moss

    Lara Moss Very Well-Known Member
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    Are you kidding me??? The Pope lays final judgement on Trump saying he's not a Christian because he wants to build a wall instead of bridges?! What about those 50' walls around the Vatican? When are those coming down? What about the Gate to Heaven (presumably between walls)?

    More importantly, has this Political Pope even read the Bible? The Bible makes it quite clear that we can judge the sin but not the sinner. "Judge not lest ye be judged". Only God knows who is a Christian and who isn't. That's God's business and nobody else's! Admonish the sin but never judge if they are Christian when they say they are or you're in for some serious judgement from God.

    "For the vicar of Christ, Pope Francis, to say another man “is not Christian” entirely because the pope disagrees with a specific point of political opinion – is unprecedented in historic Catholicism, Christianity, and ancient-to-modern expressions of faith."
    http://theconservativetreehouse.com...p-responds-full-remarks-w-video-and-citation/

    Also, I'm reading about the Pope once being a socialist. And is now a political pawn? What the…?
    I wonder...Is God using Trump (whether Christian or not) to expose all the iniquities of the world? There sure has never been a political campaign that has fired up, and has exposed the iniquities of America and now internationally, as much as this one.
     
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    Last edited: Feb 19, 2016
  2. Lara Moss

    Lara Moss Very Well-Known Member
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    The Reporter's Question to the Pope:
    Phil Pullella, Reuters: Today, you spoke very eloquently about the problems of immigration. On the other side of the border, there is a very tough electoral battle. One of the candidates for the White House, Republican Donald Trump, in an interview recently said that you are a political man and he even said that you are a pawn, an instrument of the Mexican government for migration politics.

    Trump said that if he’s elected, he wants to build 2,500 kilometers of wall along the border. He wants to deport 11 million illegal immigrants, separating families, etcetera. [Of course this reporter left out that Trump said he would TEMPORARILY deport them and then let them re-enter legally] I would like to ask you, what do you think of these accusations against you and if a North American Catholic can vote for a person like this?

    The Pope's Answer to the reporter:
    Pope Francis: “Thank God he said I was a politician because Aristotle defined the human person as ‘animal politicus.’ At least I am a human person. As to whether I am a pawn, well, maybe, I don’t know. I’ll leave that up to your judgment and that of the people. And then, a person who thinks only about building walls, wherever they may be, and not building bridges, is not Christian.

    This is not in the Gospel.[Um, what IS in the Gospel is that you are not to judge whether a person is a Christian or not. Judge the sin, not the sinner,
    or you will be judged God says].

    As far as what you said about whether I would advise to vote or not to vote, I am not going to get involved in that. I say only that this man is not Christian if he has said things like that. We must see if he said things in that way and in this I give the benefit of the doubt”.

    Donald Trumps response:
    Donald Trump: If and when the Vatican is attacked by ISIS, which as everyone knows is ISIS’s ultimate trophy, I can promise you that the Pope would have only wished and prayed that Donald Trump would have been President because this would not have happened. ISIS would have been eradicated unlike what is happening now with our all talk, no action politicians.

    The Mexican government and its leadership has made many disparaging remarks about me to the Pope, because they want to continue to rip off the United States, both on trade and at the border, and they understand I am totally wise to them. The Pope only heard one side of the story – he didn’t see the crime, the drug trafficking and the negative economic impact the current policies have on the United States. He doesn’t see how Mexican leadership is outsmarting President Obama and our leadership in every aspect of negotiation.

    For a religious leader to question a person’s faith is disgraceful. I am proud to be a Christian and as President I will not allow Christianity to be consistently attacked and weakened, unlike what is happening now, with our current President. No leader, especially a religious leader, should have the right to question another man’s religion or faith. They are using the Pope as a pawn and they should be ashamed of themselves for doing so, especially when so many lives are involved and when illegal immigration is so rampant.





     
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  3. Corie Henson

    Corie Henson Very Well-Known Member
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    I am a devout Catholic and I treat the Pope's statement as a casual comment just like a force of habit since that is their orientation. I'm not saying that the Pope is not serious in saying that but Mr. Trump should not take that remark seriously. Besides, the Catholic church has no monopoly of Christianity. Maybe that's the concept behind the so called separation of the church and state simply because the 2 are opposite poles.

    I'm sorry if I cannot explain it clearly, maybe I'm having difficulty with the English language because some Filipino idioms are hard to translate.
     
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  4. Mari North

    Mari North Very Well-Known Member
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    I must say this was a very impressive response. It's good to hear Trump claim the words that he's a Christian because I think that will help him in the long run to have said it.

    I'm as far from Catholic as anyone can get... I am and always have been very strongly Protestant. And I have to say that while I admired John Paul, this pope is shocking me (and most everyone, I understand) every time he opens his mouth, it seems. The Bible is so clear about judging only the sin... and it's like you said, @Lara Moss , it does make one wonder if the man even read it!

    Of course they claim to have read it when they were justifying the Inquisition, too...(although they have a different story/excuse) and the murder of French Huguenots, but I have a feeling I'd be wise not to go *there* in this venue. ;) A few days or a week ago, he said that it would be okay for women afraid of getting the Zika virus to use contraception. Uh, say WHAT?! The pope said that? The Catholic pope?! Wowzers. Pretty sure John Paul would be talking about abstinence like is the Catholic tradition and position and always has been for slowing the spread. What is going ON in that organization?!

    But again, we probably shouldn't start a religion debate here, but it does tie in with the original post, so I'll let it stand. I feel that nothing good can come of a religious leader being a puppet in politics. It's shameful. NOW I will let it rest. :D
     
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  5. Ike Willis

    Ike Willis Very Well-Known Member
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    Having been born and raised Catholic, we were taught the pope is infallible. I've always had trouble with that idea. My research brings to light a number of popes with questionable behavior.
     
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  6. Lara Moss

    Lara Moss Very Well-Known Member
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    Corie, I understand that you are saying the Pope's comment was a "casual force of habit" and that Trump shouldn't take it seriously. In the Bible God takes the judgement of whether a person is a Christian or not, with utmost importance. There's nothing more important to God. If anyone, Pope or not, told the world that I was not a Christian, I would take it very seriously and I would defend my faith. It's the ultimate slander in Christiandom.

    God says in the Bible that he doesn't want us to be "casual Christians". He said in a parable, "they say Lord, Lord, and I know them not". Trump may or may not be a Christian. Only God knows Trump's heart.

    I did struggle briefly as to whether this thread should go in the Religion or Politics section, but it quickly became clear to me that the Pope's comment was more politically motivated than religious. It was the opposite to God's will stated in the Bible.
     
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  7. Yvonne Smith

    Yvonne Smith Very Well-Known Member
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    This debate about all of the people coming into our country has a lot of supporters and dissenters, on both sides of the question. It is not just the Pope who is saying that we should allow all of the supposed refugees come here to America, but many of the other religious leaders are saying this , too.
    The point about the Vatican having those big walls, while saying that building them makes you not a Christian, was all over Twitter , too.
    It is kind of like Obama talking about gun control, while he goes everywhere with a full armed bodyguard,

    Truthfully, the process of electing a president is NOT about whether the person is a Christian or not, it is about how well he can run our country, and get us out of the mess that we are in, and have been in, for some years now.
    If that person is a Christian, too, then that is awesome; but it is certainly not the ruling criteria.

    When we were in Idaho, there was a man from our church that was running for sheriff. While he was a really nice guy, and a good Christian (to my best knowledge); he was not our first choice for the job of sheriff. He was very upset with us when we invited one of his opponents to host his coffee-club community meetings at our little restaurant.
    He thought that being a fellow church member was all it took to qualify him as a good sheriff in our eyes.
    This is a similar type of thing. Unfortunately, the Pope has a lot of importance with what the Catholic people think and do; so probably this will cost Donald Trump a lot of the Catholic votes, right or not.
     
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  8. Chrissy Cross

    Chrissy Cross Veteran Member
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    I would think that a lot of Catholics would vote for Rubio.
     
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  9. Chrissy Cross

    Chrissy Cross Veteran Member
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    This is on the Facebook page of a very catholic, tea party republican friend of mine.

    image.jpg
     
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  10. Mari North

    Mari North Very Well-Known Member
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    Ah.... 27 years ago. Reminds me of some of my friends who are very devout now. And one in particular who was not just atheist, but a cocaine addict just 15 years ago... 27 years ago was even scarier for him. Oh, today? He's a street evangelist bringing people to Christ across the U.S. ;)

    Good thing that people have to ability to change, and especially as we get older, isn't it?
     
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  11. Chrissy Cross

    Chrissy Cross Veteran Member
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    Yes Mari, but my point was that this Catholic friend of mine is obviously not voting for Trump anyway.
     
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  12. Mari North

    Mari North Very Well-Known Member
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    Yep, I know. And mine was that I'm very glad people can change... I know a lot of people who'd scare me if they hadn't!
     
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  13. Lara Moss

    Lara Moss Very Well-Known Member
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    The picture of Trump (above in post 9) saying he was an atheist in 1989 only means that he was once a non-believer. All Christians were once non-believers. I was once a non-believer. No one is born from the womb a believer.

    So moving forward, the Bible says there is no sin too great for God to forgive: Titus 2:14…even murder. But the repentance and believing in God must be from the heart in order for God to forgive. Only God knows our hearts…not even the Pope knows.

    With that said, there is a scripture that says, "By their fruits ye shall know them". Once someone becomes a believer they become a new person…and it's noticeable. They still fall under temptations but they mostly are focused on obeying God's words. But whether they are sincere or not is a matter of the heart that only God knows.
     
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  14. Martin Alonzo

    Martin Alonzo Very Well-Known Member
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  15. Babs Hunt

    Babs Hunt Veteran Member
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    I'm sure not going to hold that statement against Trump...we say and do a lot of things when we are young and think we know it all. I can remember a time in my youth when I did not believe God was real either and even stated it to a few people. With maturity and learning my views have changed on believing in God and many other things....so it's not hard for me to believe that Trump's views have changed on many things now too.
     
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  16. Babs Hunt

    Babs Hunt Veteran Member
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    Having practiced Catholism and having a family full of Catholics, even one Aunt who is a Nun and one entering the Priesthood I can clearly tell you that when the Pope says anything, Catholics hear it as God speaking!
     
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  17. Chrissy Cross

    Chrissy Cross Veteran Member
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    What I was trying to say and guess I failed was that it doesn't matter what the Pope said about or to Trump because most of the very right wing Catholics that I know were for Rubio or someone that has dropped out already and not Trump anyway. Maybe I shouldn't have posted the pic of Trump that was on her FB page.

    I don't care what religion or non religion someone is, I don't vote on that.
     
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  18. Babs Hunt

    Babs Hunt Veteran Member
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    Unfortunately, whatever the Pope speaks on anything affects how a lot of Catholics will view those things.
     
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  19. Chrissy Cross

    Chrissy Cross Veteran Member
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    Had a long reply ready to post on Catholics, Babs but changed my mind as it would just turn into an argument about Catholics. :)
     
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  20. Babs Hunt

    Babs Hunt Veteran Member
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    I know what you mean and think that is a very wise decision on your part Chrissy. ;)
     
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  21. Lara Moss

    Lara Moss Very Well-Known Member
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    I agree with both of you about "not going there" regarding Catholicism. I softened an earlier statement I made above when I read that one of our members is a devout Catholic…I wish to respect that.

    I'm watching Face The Nation and Trump says that the Pope issued a statement yesterday (which I can't find) that he was very pleased with and that there is no attack going on, on either side. He said it's not a positive nor a negative. I think the media didn't help the sensationalism of this issue.
     
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    Last edited: Feb 21, 2016
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