The Difference Between Us & European Justice

Discussion in 'In the News' started by Holly Saunders, Oct 6, 2018.

  1. Holly Saunders

    Holly Saunders Veteran Member
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    What do you think would be the judgement in a US Court for this appalling crime?


    I'm willing to bet it wouldn't be the same as a European court... Honestly we're sick and tired of these soft sentences which allow the criminals to be released after 2/3rd of their sentence has been served

    These pictures show the 'House of Horrors' where a woman dubbed a 'torture witch' and her ex-husband sadistically killed women they lured with personal ads in Germany.

    Angelika Wagener, 49, received a 13-year prison sentence and her former husband Wilfried, 48, an 11-year term in a psychiatric ward for the abuse that led to the deaths of two women.

    After their sentences were handed down by a German court on Friday, Angelika grinned and hugged her lawyer, Bild reports.

    The couple had entrapped at least eight women over the years, mostly luring them through personal newspaper ads to then physically and mentally torment them.


    They tortured their victims by beating, strangling and burning them, ripping out their hair, scalding them with hot water, as well as by using electric shocks and pepper spray, the trial heard.


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...tically-killed-women.html?mrn_rm=rta-fallback
     
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  2. Gloria Mitchell

    Gloria Mitchell Very Well-Known Member
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    They all should die by the same means they inflicted on others.
     
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  3. Bobby Cole

    Bobby Cole Veteran Member
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    I honestly do not know.
    I’m not a law professor by any means but I believe the defining point of the trial is whether the two should be charged with murder or manslaughter.
    Granted, there is a premeditation to commit bodily harm but did they plan on the death of their prey or rather, did they intentionally plan on killing the women?
    If, while in court, the lawyers for the two could prove that; 1. the deaths were not premeditated and 2, that one or both did not know right from wrong then I believe the U.S. court system might also allow for the lesser sentence.

    But then, judges throughout the U.S. are kind of quirky in that some would throw the book at the two no matter what a jury might reccommend and others will judge a little more favorably for the defendants.

    In my somewhat uneducated opinion, I’d say “off with their heads” but again, I honestly do not know if the court system here is any different than the one in the article.
     
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  4. Holly Saunders

    Holly Saunders Veteran Member
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    I'm with you Gloria... if guilt is proven without any doubt, then I'm an eye for an eye..

    I have a feeling that @Babs Hunt will disagree with me totally, and may be all for forgiveness, ..but not me I'm afraid!!
     
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  5. Don Alaska

    Don Alaska Very Well-Known Member
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    I became a student of criminal justice when I was laid up with my injuries, @Holly Saunders and found many cases when the punishments didn't match the crime. There was a famous case of a European (Danish, I think) who was in the U.S. on a visa. He met and coupled with an American heiress in Virginia. The couple conspired to kill both her parents and make off with all the family money. They committed the murder, but were discovered and they fled to Germany (I think) where they killed another person and tried to turn themselves in so they would be imprisoned in Germany for 9 years instead of in Virginia, where they had the death penalty. U.S. diplomats intervened and had the couple extradited back to Virginia, but the U.S. had to agree not to try for the death penalty as a condition of extradition. That is a frequent condition when criminals are extradited from European nations to the U.S. I think the death penalty should be reserved for special cases, such as multiple murders, torture and cannibalism, or perhaps terrible crimes involving children if there is absolutely no doubt of guilt. Many U.S. states no longer have the death penalty, Alaska being one, so if someone kills another person in an auto accident (vehicular homicide), the penalty may be the same a someone who kills and eats the remains of 30 children.
     
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  6. Holly Saunders

    Holly Saunders Veteran Member
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    oooh jeez..are you kidding?...if someone kills a person in a car accident, they could face the possibility of the same sentence ( potentially the death sentence) as a human cannibal? OMG!!
     
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  7. Don Alaska

    Don Alaska Very Well-Known Member
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    In Alaska, that is the case, but since we do not have the death penalty, they could both get life imprisonment. If it is a Federal case, there could be a death penalty if kidnapping or crossing a state line were involved.
     
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  8. Holly Saunders

    Holly Saunders Veteran Member
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    In the Uk the law is the same whether you're in Scotland England Wales or Northern Ireland.. but the USA seems to have so many different laws for every state, it must be hugely confusing if you go from one state to another.
     
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  9. Don Alaska

    Don Alaska Very Well-Known Member
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    Yep, we have state laws and Federal laws. The U.S. Constitution originally left most law enforcement to the individual states, but the Feds have over reached over the years and are more involved than was ever intended. Originally, the Feds were to be involved only in international cases and cases that involved two or more states, or counterfeiting. With the advent of the FBI in 1908 and its expansion in the 20s and 30s under prohibition and the expansion of Federal taxation, the central government became much more powerful and influenced many more lives than it was originally intended to touch.
     
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  10. Babs Hunt

    Babs Hunt Veteran Member
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    Are you kidding me @Holly Saunders! Those evil people deserve to have the same things done to them that they did to those poor women! If they ever repented and were truly sorry for what they did then God would forgive them...but on earth they have to pay the consequences for the evil they have done. And I don't think they would repent and have true remorse for what they did anyway.
     
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  11. Holly Saunders

    Holly Saunders Veteran Member
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    Good for you Babs.. I really thought you might feel that they should only feel the wrath if the Lord, but I'm pleased you feel the same as some of the rest of us, because that's exactly how those people should be treated.

    if a dog was to tear apart another dog, it would be put down, and rightly so... yet that dog has no idea that it shouldn't do that bad thing. A human knows very well that they shouldn't be acting in that horrendous viscous manner yet they still commit those horrific crimes, and yet not only do we ..usually.. not put them down ( no death penalty in Europe ) but we give them soft sentences and allow them to be locked up in single cells with televisions and video games , to protect them from vigilantes...
     
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  12. Ken Anderson

    Ken Anderson Greeter
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    While some states have mandatory sentencing stipulations for certain crimes, in the United States, it is often a matter of luck or misfortune, depending on which judge you get. Some judges are well known for giving light sentences for certain types of crime.

    Maine doesn't have parole, so people serve whatever sentences they receive from the judge. Someone sentenced to twenty years will be imprisoned for twenty years, barring a retrial. Because of this, judges often give lighter sentences for crimes that would receive longer sentences in states where the prisoner would not be expected to have to actually serve the time.

    Typically, sex crimes receive very light sentences here, even when they involve children. Due to outrages over particularly onerous crimes, this has been improving somewhat over the past ten years or so but people convicted of child sexual abuse are still often sentenced to time served, with longer probation periods. I don't know about other states, but in Maine, the judge decides whether someone is to be listed on a sex offender list and they are hesitant to do that, as well.
     
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  13. Holly Saunders

    Holly Saunders Veteran Member
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    Interesting @Ken Anderson , I'm a bit taken aback about the lack of courage in convicting child sex abusers...wonder why that is..and also it begs the question, not sure if you'll know the answer of course, but I wonder if it encourages sex , particularly child sex offender to travel to Maine to commit crimes , knowing they're less likely to get a heavy sentence if convicted
     
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  14. Ken Anderson

    Ken Anderson Greeter
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    If I had to guess, I'd suggest it might have something to with being a low populated state, where a lot of people know one another. When I was more politically active than I am now, I knew many of our elected officials, not only the ones in my district but in other parts of the state as well. I could call our US Senator and he'd call me back personally. I'm not bragging as pretty much anyone who is active in their community will get to know people.

    Maybe when someone gets to court, the judge knows someone in the family, or the lawyers all have relationships. To me, that's not a good answer, but I'm only guessing. People do get long sentences for other things, at times. That's something we noticed early on, after moving here from Texas, that people were getting off with light sentences for crimes that they'd get no mercy for in Texas. There seems to be an emphasis on reform, and concern about ruining the lives of the offender as if the lives of some of these children haven't been ruined.
     
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