Should Abortion Be Banned As A Discussion Topic?

Discussion in 'Help Requests' started by Ken Anderson, Nov 6, 2016.

  1. Ken Anderson

    Ken Anderson Veteran Member
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    I am very hesitant to ban topics from discussion in the forum because I like to think that adults are capable of discussing issues without going to war, but I realize that this might be naive on my part. As a secondary consideration, I'd like to believe that those who are unable to discuss a topic without getting angry would simply stay out of it and enjoy the rest of the forum, but that isn't true either.

    Abortion is an important topic. It is certainly one in which people on both sides have strong feelings, and it is one that is seized upon by politicians as a point of division, particularly in election years.

    However, in a discussion forum, there are a few things that I can be certain of. One of them is that no one's opinion is going to be changed as a result of a forum fight on the topic. This could possibly occur as the result of a reasonable discussion but that doesn't seem to be a possibility. People do change their minds and positions on abortion but this is rarely, if ever, the result of an argument with someone on the other side of the issue.

    During abortion discussion, people on both sides of the issue are quickly forced to adopt and defend extreme positions that they aren't entirely comfortable with, and the inability to rationally defend these more extreme positions leads to frustration, and frustration leads to anger.

    Another thing that I am certain of is that not one unborn baby or unwed mother is going to be saved as a result of a forum fight.

    What does occur, and probably will occur, is that online friendships will be lost, and people will leave the forum from both sides of the argument, as well as those who are simply tired of the fighting.

    I don't want to get in the habit of banning every topic that someone might disagree with, but I don't know that this is a topic that can be reasonably discussed here.

    So, I leave this open for discussion. By that, I mean that this thread is open to the discussion of discussing abortion, not to the discussion of abortion itself.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 6, 2016
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  2. Chrissy Cross

    Chrissy Cross Veteran Member
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    I'm not going to discuss it anymore,never would have but had to respond. I've kept quiet til recently and I'm sure I'm not the only one that thinks like I do but it's a subject I have no interest in anymore anyway .

    It's up to you @Ken Anderson .
     
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  3. Ken Anderson

    Ken Anderson Veteran Member
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    I think that a part of what makes it difficult is that whatever position someone holds on abortion, there is a tendency for that to change the opinions that those who disagree with them have of them as a person and, of course, that makes it personal. That is neither fair or reasonable, but it occurs, I think.
     
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  4. Lon Tanner

    Lon Tanner Well-Known Member
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    As a 82 year old single male grand father and great grand father here is what has always been my feeling about abortion.

    I have ALWAYS felt that the decision to abort is the SOLE right of the mother irrespective of when and if she chooses to abort, and then she lives with the consequences.
     
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  5. Joe Riley

    Joe Riley Veteran Member
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    The topic, itself, would be like operating a fireworks factory .....eventually it would blow up. The topic should be placed off limits, during Months, containing the letters "R" or "U". We May discuss it for one Month only.;)
     
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  6. Ken Anderson

    Ken Anderson Veteran Member
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    The discussion is is about whether or not abortion should be banned as a topic in the forum, not a discussion of the pros and cons of abortion.
     
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  7. Joe Riley

    Joe Riley Veteran Member
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    @Ken Anderson - Sorry, poorly worded. I was talking about the discussion of the topic, not meaning to infer anything about the topic.
     
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  8. Von Jones

    Von Jones Very Well-Known Member
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    The word abortion itself makes hairs stand up when it's spoken and puts people on the defense whether for or against and even neutral.
     
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  9. Ken Anderson

    Ken Anderson Veteran Member
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  10. Kitty Carmel

    Kitty Carmel Well-Known Member
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    I know I have seen opinionated arguments go back and forth on forums. Even on web sites like IMDB. Two strangers writing long angry paragraphs back and forth to each other over a TV show or movie. Because their opinion is right and they have to get the other to understand this. And that of coarse never happens.

    I think this is an adult forum and there is nothing wrong with allowing all subjects. I really do tend to stay out of the really personal stuff and political as well.
     
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  11. Ina I. Wonder

    Ina I. Wonder Very Well-Known Member
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    I agree with @Kitty Carmel. I too think that the subject can be discussed on a forum. If a subject is avoided just because it ticks off some, then those willing to be open minded never get a chance to way the the very real pro's and and cons of the issue.

    I know I had to research both sides before I came to any kind of stand that I felt comfortable with.
     
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  12. Cody Fousnaugh

    Cody Fousnaugh Very Well-Known Member
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    Funny, my last Supervisor/Director told me there are three things that basically shouldn't be discussed: Sex, Religion and Politics. But, I think he was talking more about discussing these things at the workplace. Of course, on any forum, some people will get somewhat-to-a-lot outraged when other disagree with them. I've seen outright anger, cussing and name-calling on forums due to disagreeing.

    I done a Thread about smoking on a forum and really got ridiculed for wife and I not wanting to be friends with smokers. One lady did reply and say "I firmly believe it's up to him and his wife who they want to associate with."
     
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  13. Kitty Carmel

    Kitty Carmel Well-Known Member
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    I think it's completely reasonable not to want to hang out with smokers. I wouldn't. I don't want to be exposed to it and I wouldn't want their smoke smelling selves in my home. Not that I let people in my home much. It's really for me and the cats.

    It's always good when someone speaks up against the majority.

    Now I used to smoke and quit at 25. But I was young, dumb, my friends smoked. It was the early 80's. Back then, it worked.
     
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  14. Ken Anderson

    Ken Anderson Veteran Member
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    To me, it's simply a matter of drawing lines. When our cultural lines were more local or regional in nature, we seldom came across people who drew their lines in a different place. Those who drew their lines in a different place than everyone else were thought to be a little weird, at best. Depending on which line they were drawing, and where, they might be thought of as dangerous or even sociopathic. Some lines may be drawn in sand, while others are carved into the concrete.

    I'll try to explain what I mean. It makes perfect sense to me and, to a point, it defines who I like to think I am, but I haven't tried to put it down in writing before. Bear with me, please. I might be a long time getting there. I could start anywhere, but since the topic here is abortion, I'll begin with that issue.

    One of the problems with discussing the issue of abortion in a forum is that we're locked into an extreme, black or white position, and this is rarely the position we actually hold. Another part of the problem is that we don't usually think our positions through to their logical conclusions.

    I believe that abortion is wrong in all cases, just as I believe that killing human beings at any other stage of their lives is wrong. But I don't necessarily believe that that these lines are equal or absolute.

    What do I mean by that? Let me try to illustrate it this way. I do believe that it is always wrong to kill another human being. You might think that, as an absolute position, that would be indefensible. Is it wrong to kill someone in defense of your own life, or in defense of your child or another loved one? I would say yes, but it's not as wrong as it would be to kill someone in order to take their stuff or because I enjoy killing. Let's look at a few hypothetical situations based on age and situation.
    1. What about in time of war? Is it wrong to participate in war?
    2. What if you caught that person molesting your young child? Would it be wrong to kill that person?
    3. What about capital punishment? Is capital punishment wrong?
    4. What about someone who is at the end of their life, in great pain, and with no reasonable hope for improvement? Is euthanasia wrong?
    5. What about the young boy or girl who can see no way out of a life of abuse and torture other than to kill the parent who is responsible for it?
    1. I am guessing that most of you would say that it's okay to kill in time of war, and many of you would say that it's honorable to come to the defense of your country.
    2. I am guessing that most of you would say that it's understandable that a parent might become so enraged upon coming across someone molesting their child that you would be willing to excuse them for killing that person. I will guess further that some of you would say that anyone who would do that deserves to be killed.
    3. I am guessing that most of you are in favor of capital punishment. Maybe not, but I'll bet you're not calling for the people responsible for carrying out these sentences to be tried for murder, and the judges tried as accomplices.
    4. I am guessing that most of you are probably not really in favor of euthanasia but, as you approach old age and are accumulating your fair share of pains and troubles, you are beginning to understand it. When you watch a movie about someone who can no longer bear to watch their loved one suffer, I'll bet you can at least empathize with those who might make that decision. I am also confident that some of you are in favor of euthanasia, as long as the state isn't making the decision for you.
    5. I am guessing further, that there are situations where you can understand why a child might kill their parent. You might not be able to say that it was the right thing to do but you're not calling for that child to be locked up for the rest of his or her life.
    If my assumptions were even close, I have identified that our positions on taking the life of another human being are not absolute, they are not carved into concrete, and we do not all feel the same way. Some people who kill in time of war are monsters, others are heroes, while others are merely trying to get through it alive.
    1. As a Mennonite, I believe that it is wrong to participate in war or to accept a job, such as that of a police officer, where I might be put into a position to have to make that decision. But at the same time, we don't always have the luxury of doing the right thing. I am glad that everyone wasn't a Mennonite in the 1930s and 1940s, and that there were people who were willing and able to stop Hitler. I do not, in any way, believe that those who serve in the military are horrible people because they were willing to take a life, and I do believe that many of them were heroes, to whom we all owe a debt of gratitude.
    2. I raised a young boy, and I was raising him at the time and in the place where the Freeway Killer was operating, who later turned out to be more than one serial killer, so this is an issue that I thought of. If it were necessary for me to kill someone in order to stop or to prevent them from molesting my son, I would do so, but I don't think I would be willing to take his life as a punishment.
    3. I do believe that capital punishment is wrong, and I believe that it is often wrongly applied but, at the same time, there are people for whom you wouldn't find me standing outside the prison walls holding a sign.
    4. I believe that euthanasia is wrong, but I can understand why someone would be driven to that. I wouldn't want to punish someone who took the life of their loved one out of compassion, but I would want to punish the one who took another's life because their life was no longer convenient, and I worry that legalized euthanasia will inevitably lead to that being the only option that our insurance plans will cover.
    5. Children view life from a different perspective than most of us do as adults, so I can understand that a child might feel utterly hopeless and see no solution other than to strike out against a parent who is abusing him. Yet some children kill their parents because they are little sociopaths without conscience, so this would depend on the conditions surrounding it.
    In each case, I believe that killing is wrong, but it is not equally wrong, and there are times when not killing someone might be even more wrong. This doesn't make the killing right, but it does make it justifiable and sometimes even heroic.

    Is that contradictory? Perhaps, but life is full of contradictions.

    That's the way that I view these issues, but this does not in any way mean that I consider anyone who looks at it differently to be any less ethical or moral than myself. You might draw some of the lines in a different place than I do, but that doesn't speak poorly of either of us. I hope that this makes some sense to you and, if it does, why can't we apply the same thinking to abortion?

    You may believe otherwise, but I believe that abortion is wrong, always. But I can understand that there are situations when there might not seem to be another choice, and I don't believe that every abortion is equally wrong. The woman who aborts her baby because she really wanted to have a boy instead of a girl is far more wrong than the sixteen year-old girl who is faced with the choice of giving up whatever her dreams for life might have been in order to spend the next eighteen years of her life raising a baby or deciding on an abortion. Both are wrong, but they are not equally wrong.

    Let's contrast abortion with euthanasia. My view is that when we legalize euthanasia the result will be that, in time, everyone will have the right to end their life at any time they wish, and for whatever reason, or for no reason at all. Some of you might agree with that, but the inevitable result will be that, at some point, Medicare and our insurance policies will no longer cover the treatments necessary in order to sustain our life, in effect taking that choice away from us. At some point, the only treatment that will be covered will be that which is intended to end our life. It is not unreasonable to consider that this may be applied to disabled people as well.

    Because we agreed, or at least the Supreme Court decided, that a woman should have the right to abortion, we have reached the extreme where even healthy babies, who could readily survive outside of the womb, can be aborted in a brutal manner rather than being allowed to be delivered. Yes, I know that there are people who believe that this is perfectly okay, but I can't help but believe that most people who identify as pro-choice are not entirely comfortable with partial birth abortion.

    More than once now, bills have been proposed in congress that would allow post-birth abortions up to a certain period of age, which is simply a matter of moving the line further. In fact, this was a policy in many hospitals until it was made publicly known, where unwanted but living babies were placed naked on a cold table until they died, and the cause of death was recorded as failure to thrive. No baby placed naked and alone on a cold table would survive, so this was in effect a post-birth abortion. This may still occur, although I'm sure they are taking steps to prevent it from being made public.

    Not everyone agrees on where the line should be drawn, and the nature of our legal system is to keep moving the line past the point where it is reasonably defensible. I'll talk more about lines in my next post.
     
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  15. Honey Gee

    Honey Gee Well-Known Member
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    I think it's a bit sad that people over fifty just cannot respect another's point of view without fear of retribution from another member. We all have views on what can sometimes be an uncomfortable topic. It's our view, doesn't mean it's right or wrong.
     
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  16. Chrissy Cross

    Chrissy Cross Veteran Member
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    I had my two children and had my tubes tied after my son was born since I didn't want anymore children. I've never suggested to anybody to have any abortion. I just feel very strongly about my body and my choices.

    It's only my body that I control...nobody elses. It's my right. If I feel I can't take the pain of cancer anymore I will end my life wether it's legal or not....my choice.

    People will do what they want wether it's a law or not.

    I also doubt there is anyone on here who loves babies more than I do. I wish I could save every one that is abused or mistreated, that's where my fight is...
     
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  17. Ken Anderson

    Ken Anderson Veteran Member
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    In my last post, I discussed some of the lines that we draw when it comes to taking a human life, as well as the exceptions that we might make. No doubt, some of you are thinking that I must be a little crazy for believing that killing in times of war or capital punishment was wrong. That's okay, but it's important for you to know that I don't think you are a horrible person because you draw your line in a different place.

    This didn't used to be so complicated. There was a time when pretty much everyone in any given area had grown up in the same culture, shared the same religion, and drew their lines in the same place. Whenever they encountered someone from another culture or religion, they went to war. That's kind of what we do, but we do it with words.

    There are people, perhaps even in this forum, who believe that hunting is cruel and that it should be banned. You might think less of hunters, and be tempted to use the fact that they hunt as a label that assigns them a place that is lower on the ethical scale than yourself. I don't hunt and yes, I do sometimes find myself thinking of hunters in a negative way. At the same time, I realize that this is nuts.

    I do eat meat. There's those damned contradictions again.

    Most people don't eat monkeys or animals that walk on two feet, at least not in this culture. Why? Probably because they look more like us. Maybe monkeys just don't taste good, or there aren't very many of them around, but I think it has a lot to do with the fact that we can identify more with a monkey as being another living creature than we can a cow or a deer. Then again, I know people who have gotten to know deer, those who had started to feed them in their yard, who are no longer interested in hunting or eating them.

    That's probably an exception, however. I grew up on a farm and we were told not to name some of the animals, such as the chickens and the pig. I guess my parents knew what a wuss I was because they lied to me about chickens and the pig. Throughout my childhood, no one ever slaughtered an animal in front of me. In fact, I was in my thirties before I realized that our pig probably hadn't really run away just before Christmas when I was about ten. I surely don't think that my parents had lower ethical values than me just because they raised pigs and chickens as meat.

    There are people who look down on those who eat meat, but they eat chicken and fish. Can that be because birds and fish don't look much like us? Then there are also those who will eat fish, but not chicken, probably for the same reasons, but they draw their line in a different place. Most of us will kill bugs, apparently although I must be better than some of you, because I try not to.

    On the far end of the scale, there are people who draw their lines so far in one direction that they try very hard not to even walk on the grass. I don't know what they eat, but I'm sure it torments them.

    Moving the line in the other direction, there are people who will enslave or kill people of another race because they don't look like them, or for other reasons that set them apart. Germany is one familiar example of lines being redrawn, but it is far from the only such example. Lines can be drawn on the basis of race, religion, economic status, and there is some place at which we might have to assign a label. Even serial killers often have lines that they don't cross.

    Bringing this back to the subject of forum discussions, you cannot force someone to redraw their lines to correspond with your own by berating them in a forum discussion. People do change their minds on these issues over time and due to experience and relationships, but they do not change their positions on the basis of argument, negative labels, and exclusion. We are a group of people who grew up in different parts of the world, with differing cultures and religions, and we have had varying experiences that have shaped who we are. We have to be able to accept that not everyone is going to draw their lines in the same place, and we cannot demand that they do.

    It would be nice if we could discuss the subject without all of the baggage, but I don't know if that's possible.
     
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  18. Chrissy Cross

    Chrissy Cross Veteran Member
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    I also forgot to mention that not everyone that is prochoice sees it as a way of birth control and that's a very broad and ugly way to paint everyone. I think it should be done ASAP as soon as you find out and thought it over very carefully...it's a tough decision to make for any woman I'm sure.

    It's a difficult topic to discuss because it boils down to the science of when it is a baby. That's where the disagreements begin and if you can't agree on that then there's no point in continuing.

    Also difficult to discuss when you are in the minority on a forum. On another forum this discussion
    Would be going another way.

    I don't even know why I let myself get into this discussion. Just digging my grave I guess. That's ok. Don't really care anymore.
     
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  19. Patsy Faye

    Patsy Faye Veteran Member
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    I feel the same - no need to argue because someone has a different view
     
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  20. Chrissy Cross

    Chrissy Cross Veteran Member
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    The problem is that people don't argue the facts of pro or con, I don't think people would get upset about that.

    It's when someone calls you ignorant and immoral and lacking in empathy that things get ugly...and they did.

    I don't think I'm any of those things and my life proves it.

    Flirting is my biggest crime and I'm single, would be different if I was married but I'm not.
     
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  21. Patsy Faye

    Patsy Faye Veteran Member
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    No one said that to you Chrissy
    But, they do have the right to their view and if they think 'people' are immoral, then you or I could put
    our view as to why they are not immoral - a lot are desperate and I would hate to be in that situation
    Instead - it got way out of hand, in fact 'vile'
     
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  22. Chrissy Cross

    Chrissy Cross Veteran Member
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    Yes, I can understand someone calling a prochoice person immoral but if we all blurted out what we think of certain people it would get ugly.

    Can I say you're crazy because to me what you believe is crazy? Not talking about abortion now.

    What it's all boiled down to is ugliness behind the scenes. I invite anyone that I know and talk to
    Or have talked to personally who hasn't said anything nasty about someone in a PM.

    I've done it and it's been done to me.
     
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  23. Patsy Faye

    Patsy Faye Veteran Member
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    I see nothing wrong in people having the view that abortion is immoral ! Its their belief and if you want to change
    that belief you put a clear argument across why its not so, instead of taking things personally
    And I don't get your last sentence either - lets leave it there
     
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  24. Chrissy Cross

    Chrissy Cross Veteran Member
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    Because this is really more than about abortion, Patsy. It just started there.

    I don't want to change anyone's belief about abortion, never have.
     
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  25. Patsy Faye

    Patsy Faye Veteran Member
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    I will end this by saying, I saw nothing leading up to the abortion thread
    That's it - I'm done
     
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