Justice

Discussion in 'Philosophy & Psychology' started by Martin Alonzo, May 27, 2019.

  1. Martin Alonzo

    Martin Alonzo Veteran Member
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    What is justice went you start looking what justice is and how it changes all around the world. The US/Canadian idea is more like vengeance if you do something wrong [we] want to punish you even if it does not help anyone. Example if someone kills a friend or steals something from you. The justice system takes over and you never get compensated for what you lost but you put the person in jail and you are required to feed him, cloth him, give him medical care, and lodging at your expense. Sounds great for a person in poor health and homeless. This is accepted as justice.
    Little different in the Dominican Republic if you kill someone the justice system takes over but if the guilty person can pay all persons who feel that something was taken away from them the charges are dropped. If something is robbed and you return it and pay all damages you will go free.
    I don’t know which is the right justice, but the idea of paying for what you did makes more sense, than giving you free room and board if you do something.
     
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  2. Patsy Faye

    Patsy Faye Veteran Member
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    I agree - seems a much better idea for theft
    Not for more serious crimes though
     
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  3. Don Alaska

    Don Alaska Very Well-Known Member
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    There is no reason not to steal under the Dominican system, @Martin Alonzo. You can steal all you want, but if you get caught, you just have to give it back. If you don't get caught, you get to keep what you stole. Where is the deterrence? I think restitution should be a part of the punishment, along with paying court costs and some time in jail to discourage you from doing it again. If you saw @Yvonne Smith's video (I think) of what is happening in Seattle (and Anchorage and San Francisco), it is largely the result of the :"gentler form" of "justice".
     
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  4. Martin Alonzo

    Martin Alonzo Veteran Member
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    You need to pay it back and damages what is the price for the damages?
    Like I said I do not know the answer what is right but if someone steals something that means he has the right of free room and board with medical all his life?
     
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  5. Patsy Faye

    Patsy Faye Veteran Member
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    The thing is, prisons are full to bursting, for minor crime there has to be a better solution - give back - pay back
    If there is a third time then prison a likely option. I'd rather hardened violent criminals were imprisoned.
     
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  6. Frank Sanoica

    Frank Sanoica Veteran Member
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    @Patsy Faye "Stealing" another's life is an entirely different thing than stealing another's property. Another's life cannot be returned. This scenario becomes even more complex in the case of "justifiable homicide", such as committing murder while acting in defense of one's own life.

    Following the self-defense line of reasoning, soldiers at war might be thought to be acting in self defense, ya think? Ordered to kill by a higher authority "justifying" the killing.

    As I mentioned the Iranian custom of cutting off offenders' hands, those folks also go beyond, using other forms of mutilation to exact "justice" without killing the offender. One is the gouging out of his/her eyes. This was ordered by the Kahn if he detected plotting against his position by any of his children. One might consider the "morality" or lack of it by those folks.
    Frank
     
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  7. Patsy Faye

    Patsy Faye Veteran Member
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    That's what I was saying
    As for the Kahn - no morality whatsoever
     
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  8. Bobby Cole

    Bobby Cole Veteran Member
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    I definitely understand what Martin is saying in regard to prisoners being treated as though they are at some vacation resort aka “The Gray Bar Hotel”.

    But that’s not my pet peeve.
    If a person is defending him or herself or being defended in a court of law, no matter the outcome, the defendant is going to have to pay something. With the exception of having a court appointed lawyer, it’s all out of pocket. But even then, someone has to pay.

    It has been my observation that the more expensive the lawyer, the better chance of coming out without a conviction but what if a person is Really innocent of a proposed ill deed? Again, excluding the court appointed attorney, why should it cost so much money to be defended?
    To my way of thinking, if a person is found innocent then every penny that person had to spend to get clear of an accusation should be refunded.
    But then, if a lawyer worked for nothing, he or she wouldn’t aspire to a greater height of knowledge and practice.

    Derned if ya do, derned if ya don’t but an innocent person shouldn’t have to go through bankruptcy plus the accusation.
     
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  9. Martin Alonzo

    Martin Alonzo Veteran Member
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    If something is taken from you. The person is captured do you get what they took back and compensated for your trouble? In US and Canada the answer is NO but we through him in jail that you with your taxes will have to look over until time served. Now me I would rather have what was taken and paid for my troubles than that. If someone was killed I know you cannot bring them back and the people who suffered the loss will not be compensated by the person who did it. What value if you could put on the person you lost and if all the people involved could be compensated what would be wrong with that. It is hard to understand in a country where everyone has life insurance and if you lose someone the insurance will pay you. Or if someone stole your car the insurance will see you get paid. In a country where that does not happen the way you view things changes.
     
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  10. Lois Winters

    Lois Winters Very Well-Known Member
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    Bobby, a good defense lawyer has a staff that has to be paid. A defendant will not have that luxury if he has to rely on a public defender. There are so many parts of an investigation into an alleged crime and each must be examined almost microscopically. The public defender who may not have the resources usually will have to go to trial on his wits alone. If he believes his client is not guilty as charged, many of these lawyers put on a great defense, but the prosecutors often will win out with all their evidence. On the other hand a hired defense attorney, will usually find some mishap that took place during the investigation, an irregularity with the evidence, and case law that will either get his client off or at least a very reduced sentence. If the client is indeed not guilty as charged for the crime he is on trial for, he's usually acquitted, but this all comes at great cost. The trial itself is expensive as the judge and his staff as will as the prosecutor and his staff must all be paid. Along comes the attorneys and their staffs and viola. The not guilty party is not refunded monetarily, he is rewarded his freedom.
     
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  11. Ken Anderson

    Ken Anderson Senior Staff
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    @Bobby Cole's point, though, as I understand it, is that the innocent person who has been wrongfully accused shouldn't have to pay the cost or, at least, should be compensated for all of the costs associated with his defense. People wrongfully accused of crimes have had to mortgage or even sell their homes, go heavily in debt, or worse, and depending on the nature of the crime they were accused of, they are sometimes left with a reputation that can follow them for the rest of their lives, as losing prosecutors will rarely admit that the person they were prosecuting has been wronged.

    That's wrong.

    As taxpayers, we don't like the idea of having to pay for someone's defense, but we're willing to pay for their prosecution, and we're willing to pay to house the guilty for as long as their sentence might be. Yet, as taxpayers, we are paying for the police who wrongfully arrest the innocent, and we're paying for the costs of the prosecution, and the prosecutors have almost unlimited tax funds at their disposal.

    If the police and the prosecutors are representing the people, as they say, then shouldn't the people have to pay for their mistakes?
     
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  12. Lon Tanner

    Lon Tanner Veteran Member
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    I do not support Solitary Confinement for longer than 10 days. Any longer is CRUEL & UNUSUAL PUNISHMENT.
     
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  13. Bobby Cole

    Bobby Cole Veteran Member
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    Yes @Ken Anderson, that’s pretty much what I am driving at but to further answer @Lois Winters, freedom is indeed a valuable thing to have but whilst winning that basic freedom it also includes becoming enslaved to the debt collector, loss of family, loss of a business, loss of reputation or going homeless the question remains, “was it worth it?”
    And, don’t think that there aren’t some homeless people out there who are in their situation because of a law suit or other legal actions. There are because I have met a few over my 23 years in the homeless ministry and it’s tragic to see how broken a person can become all because of someone else’s actions whether intentional or not.
    It may sound weird but I have heard guys say way too many times that it would have been better if they hadn’t fought and just simply gone to jail.
     
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