Gun Control News

Discussion in 'In the News' started by Ken Anderson, Aug 21, 2018.

  1. Ken Anderson

    Ken Anderson Greeter
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    Since we don't generally have a lot to say about any, one specific case of gun control, let this thread be a place where we can post bits of news related to gun control attempts or enforcement, and there's room for debate and discussion on any one of them.

    By news, by the way, I don't mean that it necessarily has to be something published in a newspaper.

    I'll start it out with one that I found some amusement in, given my nasty disposition. In June of 2016, the owner of a restaurant in Portland, Maine, who had been in business for twelve years at the time, reacted to the shooting at the gay nightclub in Florida by posting a notice on her website, on Facebook, and in interviews, that people who owned an assault rifle were not welcome in either of her restaurants.

    Source: Portland Press-Herald, June 16, 2016

    I don't know exactly when her larger restaurant closed, but the building is now up for sale and listed as vacant.

    Source: New England Commercial Property Exchange, 8/8/18

    She may have already sold the Foreside Tavern in Falmouth. Neither their site or Facebook page has any information about ownership or about a change in ownership, but I didn't look beyond a month or so. They have posted a notice saying that they will be closing on 8/20 "for a little summer break," without including a reopening date, however. Falmouth is a very liberal city. I don't know if you're allowed to buy a house there if you've ever voted Republican so she might be okay in Falmouth. Although usually recognized as Maine's most liberal city, Portland restaurants depend, far more than Falmouth, on people from other parts of Maine, who come to Portland to shop at the Maine Mall, and elsewhere.

    Nationally, a business might lose some of its profit margins but be able to stay in business when they cater to liberal pet causes, although we've seen CEOs forced to resign and companies trying to walk back political statements from time to time. But nationally, liberals are far more effective at scaring the hell out of companies whose owners dare even so much as say something nice about a Republican president.

    At the state or local levels, at least in Maine, I have seen more than one business go down after stepping into the gun control quagmire or other leftist causes, particularly after sensational headlines in the newspaper. It's like, they want to be part of that too, and they are applauded by the media. Only, months later they find that the people whose business they said they no longer wanted are taking that seriously, and they'll remember it long after the newspapers are done with the story.

    I wonder why they do it, sometimes. A restaurant in Patten was out of business within a year after the owner posted a small sign about weapons not being allowed in the restaurant and then, her biggest mistake, giving an interview to the newspaper about how she was in favor of gun control. I doubt very many people had brought weapons into her restaurant anyhow, and they probably wouldn't have even noticed the sign. But they do pay attention to who is taking a side against them on an issue that matters to them.
     
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  2. Tex Dennis

    Tex Dennis Well-Known Member
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    I have seen some of the same here in Texas on posted retail outlets, word gets around. Many places here that were concealed carry only 30;07 signs when open carry was voted in went to 30:06 no carry signs and both sure felt the sting of it and changed back and removed the 06 signs, I know of several personally it cost them, we even had some offering discounts to open carry citizens. Word does get around.
     
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  3. Don Alaska

    Don Alaska Very Well-Known Member
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    Here there are few businesses that are posted, but there is one with a sign:" concealed carry welcome here. Please carry concealed, but if needed, accuracy is appreciated".
     
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  4. Frank Sanoica

    Frank Sanoica Veteran Member
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    Long ago, still in Illinois, a hulking brute of a guy several heads taller than I took it upon himself to declare he would kill me, given the chance. His chance came one night while our company bowling league was in session. He showed up there, attempted to get me into the restroom..........

    I let the word out, and several dozen half-inebriated fellow employees decided to vigourously side with me, so the guy swore and left. Scared shitless for awhile, I bought a nice, tiny, very unusual Baby Browning .25 Automatic Lightweight, from a sporting goods store, for $57.50, and began carrying it in my pocket everywhere, completely illegally, of course. The purchase was made no questions asked, no background checks, no interference from Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms; that was how it still worked in 1967. One year later, following the 2nd. Kennedy killing, the 1968 Gun Control Act was passed, changing forever law-abiding citizens' ability to easily obtain an "equalizer".

    Fortunately, the issue never presented itself again. Had I kept that little Browning, it would be worth about $500 today. Handguns, especially: better than money in the bank!

    Frank
     
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  5. Ken Anderson

    Ken Anderson Greeter
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    Where did you live where it was illegal to carry a weapon in 1967? I was in tenth grade and I could carry a weapon.
     
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  6. Frank Sanoica

    Frank Sanoica Veteran Member
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    @Ken Anderson

    "Long ago, still in Illinois, ........"

    Illinois forbade carry of a weapon, whether concealed or not, until just a few years ago. Even carry in a vehicle was illegal, though folks going on hunting trips disregarded the law. Illinois was thought by the lawyers who even supported CCW to likely be the last and only statIllinois

    Possession of a handgun in the City of Chicago was then illegal. Yet, most everyone knew that everyone possessed one. A strange warpage of the law extending to nearly all residents.

    We lived 1 mile west of the Chicago City Limits, in Berwyn. Our local laws concerning firearms in general, and handguns in particular, were garbled: no one seemed able to interpret their accuracy. So, every Berwyn resident was thought to possess a handgun, and that was likely probable. My Dad had several, which I inherited. During my 30 years in Berwyn, from birth until exit, I never once had need to hold and point a gun in self-defense. Knew of no one else who had. Everyone knew guns were TOOLS, albeight MIGHTY TOOLS, to be used only at times of supreme duress.

    Frank
     
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  7. Hal Pollner

    Hal Pollner Very Well-Known Member
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    There are many who pack illegally, and they feel justified in doing so.

    Hal
     
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  8. Ken Anderson

    Ken Anderson Greeter
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    The 2nd Amendment could give them support for that feeling.
     
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  9. Ken Anderson

    Ken Anderson Greeter
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    A week or so ago, an off-duty Dallas police officer entered the wrong apartment, thinking it was hers, and shot and killed the rightful occupant when he didn't "respond to her commands." I don't know if she's been charged yet, but they are talking about manslaughter charges. She lived in the same complex. In the days that followed, it looked as if she wasn't going to be charged at all, and I think that would have been a travesty.

    From what I've seen, I don't doubt that she was confused and may have thought she was in her own apartment although, if not for the fact that she was reported to have been returning home after a shift on duty, I would have thought that alcohol might have been involved. I've lived in apartments where all the doors look the same, but there are numbers on the door, and I know that I have never even tried to enter the wrong apartment.

    I think the manslaughter charge is reasonable. I don't believe that she entered the apartment with the intention of killing someone and, believing that the occupant was an intruder in her own apartment, I don't doubt that she felt threatened. But if I walked into someone else's house and shot the unarmed occupant, you can be sure that I'd be charged, and manslaughter probably wouldn't be the only charge.

    There have been many cases of on- or off-duty police being held to a far lighter standard when it comes to shootings than a gun-carrying citizen would be held to, including one only a couple of towns from me, where the police went to the wrong house sometime after midnight, and the door was answered by someone holding a rifle. The police shot him multiple times, killing him. The police weren't charged because the investigators believed that the mistaken address was an honest error and they were justified in feeling threatened when confronted by a man holding a rifle.

    In my opinion, that was absolutely wrong. He had every right, under Maine law, to own and possess a weapon in his own home, and the most obvious purpose for having a weapon is for self-defense. There were no allegations even that he was pointing it at them. If you are allowed to own and possess a weapon for self-defense, then holding that weapon while answering the door would not be unreasonable. If I knocked on someone's door at 3:00 o'clock in the morning and shot the guy who answered the door because he also had a weapon, I would have been arrested on the scene.

    There have also been cases, and I am thinking of one that also occurred in Maine, where the police shot someone to death simply because they got tired of waiting around. He was someone who they knew to have a history of mental illness. He was holding a knife but he wasn't within twenty feet of the police. When he did not respond to their commands for him to drop the knife, they shot him seventeen times, I think it was. There too, there were no charges, nor was any internal disciplinary actions taken.

    While I consider myself to be pro-law enforcement, I believe that the police should be held to a higher standard than the average citizen, given that they are mandated to have more training than the average citizen. I know that, when I was a paramedic, my actions on the scene of an emergency would be held to a higher standard than the untrained citizen who stopped to render aid.

    In other cases, such as where the police shoot someone because they mistook a cell phone to be a weapon, I don't think they are necessarily in the wrong. In a potentially dangerous situation, they have only seconds to decide whether the threat is real and, under those circumstances, they could easily assume that someone is reaching for a handgun rather than a cellphone. However, if they have the wrong guy, and are confronting someone who shouldn't have been confronted in the first place, those might be different circumstances. These days, people frequently want to be able to film any encounters they have with the police.

    I'm not entirely comfortable with the idea that citizens are responsible for always obeying commands, whether or not the commands are lawful. While it might be the safest course of action, in a free society, innocent people should not be under the command of the police, nor should they be afraid to reach for their cellphone.
     
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  10. Don Alaska

    Don Alaska Very Well-Known Member
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    I agree with the sentiments expredded in your last post, @Ken Anderson. There have been numerous cases involving police making errors, assaulting the wrong house, and innocent people dying as a result. I worked with someone who was an ex-policeman and probably carried concealed in our workplace even though it was strictly firearms-free. I expressed, and he agreed with, the idea that if you are carrying properly concealed, no one will know unless there is an emergency. He obviously was properly trained as he was also ex-military, and was the primary instructor for the "Non-Violent Intervention and De-Escalation" course at that facility. I always believed that he carried a small weapon in an ankle holster, although I never asked as I didn't want to know.
     
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  11. Shirley Martin

    Shirley Martin Veteran Member
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    I have to disagree with that last statement, @Ken Anderson. If people don't have to obey police commands, they might as well be suggestions.
     
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  12. Ken Anderson

    Ken Anderson Greeter
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    So you're okay with an off-duty cop entering my home in the middle of the night to order me around, although I am committing no crime, and I am supposed to do as he says? While I agree that the safest course of action, when faced with a person with a gun, might be to do as he says, if I have committed no crime, the person with the gun is no more than a thug. And if someone comes into my house in the middle of the night with a gun, rather than obeying the intruder's commands, I might just use my own gun. A policeman issuing an unlawful order is no better than a thug.
     
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  13. Shirley Martin

    Shirley Martin Veteran Member
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    If he or she identifies himself or herself as an officer of the law, I think it would be best to obey is/her commands and take it up with the law afterward. That way, nobody dies.

    If they just bust in without saying who they are, I probably would shot them, too.
     
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  14. Ken Anderson

    Ken Anderson Greeter
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    I have never disagreed that this might be the safest course of action in dealing with anyone with a weapon, but a cop who is issuing an unlawful order is not acting as an officer of the law. By the way, it is not at all uncommon in home invasions for the invaders to identify themselves as police. It lessens their chances of being shot in the event that the homeowner is armed.
     
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  15. Shirley Martin

    Shirley Martin Veteran Member
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    But if he is within the law and you shoot him, you're gonna be in deep doodoo.
     
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  16. Ken Anderson

    Ken Anderson Greeter
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    If he's a thug without a badge, I could be dead. We cannot expect the police to keep us safe, and we can't protect ourselves if we have to assume that every thug has a badge.
     
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  17. Frank Sanoica

    Frank Sanoica Veteran Member
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    @Ken Anderson
    Your post is focussed, I understand, upon specific cases, but still reveals the trend toward a "police-state", as such types of police killings seem to have become far more prevalent lately.
    Frank
     
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  18. Frank Sanoica

    Frank Sanoica Veteran Member
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    @Ken Anderson
    You missed one exceedingly important consideration, one that has entered the equation very often: the cops entering often are non-uniformed, unidentifiable on sight by the homeowner, who is exposed only to commands issued by "POLICE" claims, which may be FALSE. Surely criminals are fully aware that claiming to be police subdues victims. They even often wear uniforms.
    Frank
     
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  19. Frank Sanoica

    Frank Sanoica Veteran Member
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    @Shirley Martin
    See my post to @Ken Anderson : Intruders very often identify themselves as "POLICE", STAY WHERE YOU ARE, DON'T MOVE!"

    How do you as a terrified unassuming and helpless individual instantly differentiate between the two possibilities of real or fake police? Unless you are dead certain (no pun) they are real police, you shoot before they do, if possible. A horrible scenerio, yes. But one establishing between the possible death or continuation of the life of a completely innocent citizen.
    Frank
     
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  20. Bobby Cole

    Bobby Cole Veteran Member
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    I’ll have to do some research to prove it, but there is a possibility that we simply hear more about it rather than it being more prevalent.
    Of course, there is the distinct fact that our nation is becoming more violent overall so if some individual police officers are caught up within that well.....................

    As far as my own personal fears, I know all of the law enforcement officers that come into our neighborhood plus a couple of detectives and some of the swat members so a bad guy knocking on my door and identifying himself as “police” would not fare well at all.
     
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  21. Hal Pollner

    Hal Pollner Very Well-Known Member
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    You mean there are some homeowners who are NOT armed?
    Hal
     
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  22. Yvonne Smith

    Yvonne Smith Greeter
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    I think that the whole situation has gotten really bad, to the point where neither civilians or police offers feel safe anymore. There are probably as many cases where police have been shot/killed by an unprovoked attacker who just wants to kill law enforcement officers, as there are cases where police have over-reacted and killed someone who was the wrong person, or who had a cell phone instead of a weapon in their hand.
    The days when police could handle a situation without needing to shoot someone seem to be becoming less and less, as there are more armed criminals who are shooting at police.
    There was an article in the news about a woman who was shot and killed by police in the little Idaho town where I grew up. Usually, this town is pretty laid-back, and not the kind of small town where police are having to shoot someone.
    The woman had been hysterical, and her husband drove her to the local hospital, and left her sitting in their car while he went inside to get help for her, and maybe some medication to calm her down.
    Because she was in a hysterical state, she got out of the car and was screaming in the street, and police were called.
    She somehow had a little kitchen paring knife, and was waving it around while screaming, and didn’t respond when the police told her to drop the knife, but instead , she was terrified and started running.
    The police had her surrounded, and any way that she ran, it would have been towards a police officer, and they shot her repeatedly and killed her.
    This seems to me like something that could have been handled without shooting this distraught woman. There were enough police officers on scene to have overpowered her, and it should have been obviously to them that she was not in a sane mental state, but still not dangerous to anyone, except maybe herself.
     
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  23. Tex Dennis

    Tex Dennis Well-Known Member
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    We saw so many times in training a person with a knife (rubber training one) able to injure an officer before they were stopped usually with a firearm 7 yds away or less most every time, as close as you have to be with a knife there are few misses. Most new recruits could not believe that until shown. The attacker lost in the end but not without hurting someone.
     
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  24. Tex Dennis

    Tex Dennis Well-Known Member
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    And if described lady had a firearm and did not drop it as instructed? Same ending. Some things are just not healthy to do. Wondering just how many officers as if 1 missed or has a shoot through the danger to others? My 1st thought there. Surrounded to me means what it states.
     
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  25. Peter Renfro

    Peter Renfro Member
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    Hurting is a hell of a lot better than Killing!
     
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