@Yvonne Smith, @Martin Alonzo, @Bobby Cole. The recent hostility in this sub forum has caused me to almost leave this forum but I have too many great friends here and I admire Ken as an admin. So I'm staying. This subject raises my blood pressure and I will avoid it from now on. Did some research into conspiracy theorists and found this and I realize it's pointless to even bother in here. A conspiracy theorist has "seen the light", so to speak. That is, he has seen the Truth, which the majority of other people haven't. A conspiracy theorist has the absolute, irrefutable, unshakable CONVICTION that he knows the Truth, only the Truth, and nothing but the Truth. There's absolutely no doubt in his mind that what he believes is the Truth. The conspiracy theorist will say things like "there's NO WAY these photos are not faked" and "there's NO WAY this is something else than controlled demolition", etc. He is absolutely sure and certain at all possible levels that he knows the truth. There's absolutely nothing you can say that will convince the conspiracy theorist otherwise. You can refute every single claim he makes to absolute smithereens with hard scientific easy-to-understand facts, and that will not move his conviction even a fraction of an inch. Not even a shadow of a doubt will cross his mind at any point. The doctrine which the conspiracy theorist believes is based on a series of books, web pages and "documentaries" made by some other conspiracy theorists (which are completely akin to prophets), and every single word in these works is considered the absolute Truth by the conspiracy theorist. Every single claim, no matter how small or how ridiculous, is the absolute Truth. Not a single claim is considered dubious or unimportant. The conspiracy theorist has the irresistible urge to spread the Truth to others, the lost lambs who wander in darkness and still don't know the Truth, who haven't seen the light, and who must beconverted. Spreading the Truth is in no way limited to the Internet. Like the most vocal religious movements, also conspiracy theorists will organize protest marches and parades, where they will disturb the peace of completely unrelated events, they will get into TV shows to spread their convictions, they will preach to individuals at their workplaces and other places, etc, etc. Trying to discuss critically the views of the conspiracy theorist will always cause a tirade of contempt and arrogant religious mongering. Trying to rationally argue against any of the claims of the conspiracy theorist is a completely futile endeavor. There's just no convincing the conspiracy theorist. Like all religions, conspiracy theorists also have their big enemies. The Government is the enemy number one. The scientifical community is just an evil organization under the control of the Government, part of the system, and thus cannot be trusted. Like some religions, also conspiracy theorists will twist and bend science for their own purposes, and quote science and writings of scientists completely out of context, changing the original meaning, to support their claims. When actual scientists show how the "science" of the conspiracy theorists is completely flawed, the conspiracy theorists will discredit the scientists because they are just part of the system. Basically any scientist who opposes their views is delusional, incompetent and part of the system and thus not to be trusted, while any scientist (or anyone claiming to be a scientist) who agrees with the conspiracy theory is immediately credible and competent, and will be much quoted. There's almost always a certain arrogance to both conspiracy theorists and people who believe in them. The firmer the belief, the more arrogant the attitude. Perhaps not in every single individual case, but in average this seems to be very true. Even if they don't use directly these types of expressions, their attitude is nevertheless like: "Ha ha, do youreally believe that we went to the Moon?" (or substitute with any conspiracy theory which is currently trendy) with a tone of voice saying "you fool, you have been deceived, I know the Truth, ha ha!" As already stated, they are so utterly convinced that there's not even a shred of doubt or place for alternatives. They already know the Truth, the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth, and anything else (especially the "official explanation") is utterly false. I suppose that in most cases this comes from a sense of belonging to a special "elite" group of people who know the inside secrets of the government or whatever organizations, who are "in the loop", and thus superior to the average person in terms of knowledge. In the most basic sense it's a childish "I know something you don't" attitude, but escalated to "adult" proportions (while still being equally childish). It's the same kind of mentality as with gossipping, but slightly different in nature and scale. If directly confronted with the question how they know it to be true with such certainty, they might back up a little and concede that it might not be so (but they are still convinced because of all the "irrefutable evidence"). However, that's usually only for show, and without such direct confrontation their attitude tends to be very arrogant and childish. I find it both amusing and sad at the same time that these poor people are so convinced that they know the truth and that they know more than the rest of people, and that they are more intelligent and they cannot be deceived, while in fact they have been completely deceived into believing lies and distortions. It's both amusing and sad how arrogant they are about their "knowledge". When confronted, they will also always claim to have studied the subject impartially, and that they have come to the conclusion by deducing from all the available evidence. Yet quite contradictorily, when they are pointed to evidence which disproves the conspiracy theory, they will always outright dismiss it without any consideration, without being able to disprove the evidence, and without giving it any thought, immediately proving that they are not being impartial and considering all the evidence. (In some exceptional cases some believers will admit that the evidence might be valid, but they will not falter in their belief anyways. After all, as already stated, this is a religion, and doubting the premises of the religion is showing weakness, which they cannot permit.) Conspiracy theorists really like to talk about the scientific community as if it was some kind of secret society who have secret meetings where they agree on which lies they will announce to the world. This is just absolutely ridiculous. Just think about this: There are tens of thousands, if not even hundreds of thousands of scientists from around the world, from different cultures, from different countries, cultures and countries which have absolutely no interest in defending some possible conspiracy the United States government (or the NASA) has put up. These different people from all around the world all form the so-called scientific community. What possible interest would there be for all of them to lie in order to defend the United States government for something they might have made? One could argue that they are not lying, they are just misled, like all the other people. This is not any less ridiculous. From hundreds of thousands (if not even millions) of critically-thinking intelligent people from all around the world, from different countries an cultures, all of them are so gullible as to believe some lies set up by the United States government or the NASA? These scientists are not everyday people. They have measurement devices, laboratories and expertise to test and corroborate all physical facts surrounding these conspiracy theories. If there would be, for example, something wrong with, let's say, the Moon landing photographs, these hundreds of thousands of scientists from all around the world would certainly have all the means and expertise to determine that. The conspiracy theorists also want us to believe that all scientists are actually afraid of publishing discoveries and claims which contradict what is currently established as the scientific truth. This couldn't be farther from the truth. This is certainly not how the scientific community works. There would be nothing more exciting and rewarding for a scientist than to be able to publish a paper which presents a new discovery or scientifically credible theory. That's actually the dream of most people who work in a scientific field: To be the first one to discover something, to get one's name to be known around the world. This is the ultimate goal and dream of all scientists: To become famous, to do something earth-shaking, something which would change the world. If there was any scientifical ground on any of these conspiracy theories, you can be absolutely sure that scientists would be rushing to publish papers about it. It would be absolutely ridiculous to think that all the scientists would actually be afraid of doing so. This is just not how science works. The conspiracy theorists are asking us whether we choose to believe these hundreds of thousands of scientists, or some random people in the internet with dubious competence and credibility (namely the conspiracy theorists themselves). Who are you going to believe? The hundreds of laboratories around the world (from countries which have absolutely no interest in defending a possible hoax by NASA) who have the equipment to measure whether the Apollo missions put a reflector on the surface of the Moon, or a random conspiracy theorist in the internet who claims that there's no such reflector? Who are you going to believe? The hundreds of demolition experts from around the world who don't see any problem with the mechanics of the fall of the WTC towers, or some random conspiracy theorists in the internet who have absolutely no expertise on demolition or physics? Conspiracy theorists like to be non-conformists, they like to be "different", they like to rebel against authority and against official explanations, they don't want to be misled by some false information, they don't want to be naive and gullible. Rather ironically, people who believe in these conspiracy theories are naive, gullible and easily misled. In their desire to rebel, they are just jumping on the bandwagon. The sad thing is that they are misled from the real truth to nothing but a bunch of lies and deceit. What these people lack is a healthy source criticism: These gullible people will believe all the elaborate "documentaries" the conspiracy theorists have created, be convinced that there is something odd going on, and most importantly, will never do more research about the subject. For some reason the idea that maybe there is more information about the subject, that maybe some knowledgeable people have actually debunked those "documentaries" and websites, never crosses the mind of these people who are misled by conspiracy theories, and they will never do the research to find out (even though in the internet era this is a laughably easy thing to do). There's an odd phenomenon with conspiracy theory believers. If they say "25% of Americans doubt that the official story is true", and you respond with "that just goes to show how gullible people are", approximately 90% of these conspiracy theory believers will respond: "Exactly!" I don't really understand what is it with these people. Either they can't understand what is being said, or they are deliberately distorting what was just said, for whatever reason I cannot grasp. The funny thing is that they end up actually agreeing with you (ie. that people who believe in conspiracy theories are gullible) while thinking they are proving some kind of point (regardless of whether they responded like that without understanding or deliberately). http://warp.povusers.org/grrr/ConspiracyTheoryReligions.html
A wise decision Chrissy, if these matters disturb you best to keep away, we all have our beliefs and I try to live and let live keeping an open mind but wary of any stories that don't sit with my ideas of how the world works. I realise the older I get the less I know for certain, if I have enough beers I may see the light for a few hours but the next day everything is as confusing as ever. I just wake up each morning drink my coffee and make plans which I rarely keep, and enjoy waking up to my friends on here and allowing the day to unfold, as if it's my last. One day I will be right and will either wake up in paradise or just be stardust drifting to the four winds, both are OK with me from where I am now. Pleased you didn't leave by the way I would miss your caring ways, and your avatar lighting up my desktop. We all need angels someplace in our lives
Thanks, Terry. You saw in my personality quiz that I'm a "Defender", and I always feel I have to defend something that's not right but this is just too much for me and gave me a nose bleed, something I haven't had in 60 years.
Yes I remember you were the Defender, (which means you will be attacked) I can't recall mine......will look..................yes The Campaigner .......looking at the results we have a good balance of personality types amongst members, we could form a team and take over the world, and sort out the sorry mess the others have created. http://www.seniorsonly.club/threads/personality-quiz-just-for-fun.3380/
I'm always attacked. I've gotten used to that but it's sad when those that you have defended numerous times attack. Guess you always gotta watch your back.