Bill Clinton Vs Donald Trump

Discussion in 'Politics & Government' started by Frank Sanoica, Jun 5, 2018.

  1. Frank Sanoica

    Frank Sanoica Supreme Member
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    Spotted two separate news briefs, possibly connected, but I only read through the headlines. Seems Bill was spouting off that if we had a Democratic majority, Trump would already have been impeached.

    Trump spouted off, if he is impeached, he will pardon himself!

    Clever, to say the least. I'm thinking the Constitution overlooked that possibility, as I've never heard of it before.

    Whaddaya think?

    Frank
     
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  2. Thomas Stearn

    Thomas Stearn Veteran Member
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    I think it would not make a good impression on a law-abiding democracy if a president pardoned himself in order to prevent criminal prosecution against himself. It would be just as novel as the arguments he might use to justify that. After all, the idea is that the president is not above the law. So if there has been a criminal offence, it ought to be possible to take legal action against him. Then the question arises whether it would be acceptable to have a president in office who seems to have committed a crime? Can a pardon as an act of mercy be used for oneself rather than for other people?
    As often, it's not just a technical or purely legal question, if you like, but also an ethico-juristic one, which also a president has to face up to. The act of pardoning himself would also run counter to article II, section 2 of the constitution ("he shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment") which makes criminal prosecution possible if someone has been removed from office by impeachment.
    Last but not least, why on earth would a president want to take precautions against being legally prosecuted? Why would he not put trust in a constitution the defense and support of which is the aim of all members of congress and of the president in particular?
     
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    Last edited: Jun 6, 2018
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  3. Ken Anderson

    Ken Anderson Senior Staff
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    The idea behind it, I am sure, is to prevent a presidency from being derailed by frivolous or politically motivated prosecutions.
     
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  4. Harry Havens

    Harry Havens Veteran Member
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    I guess he could pardon himself from federal crimes, but impeachment proceedings would continue and likely be guaranteed. Then there is the matter of state violations that he could still be liable.
     
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  5. Don Alaska

    Don Alaska Supreme Member
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    I think he could pardon himself prior to the beginning of impeachment proceedings, but I think once he is under impeachment, he could no longer pardon. A President can't be brought under criminal indictment while still in office, but if he were impeached and subsequently removed from office, he would be subject to criminal proceedings. I don't believe members of Congress can be indicted either "while Congress is in session", but between sessions or during recesses, it could happen. Congress can also sanction its own members. Ford pardoned Nixon for any crimes he might have committed. At the time, that was brought into question but was allowed to stand.
     
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  6. Frank Sanoica

    Frank Sanoica Supreme Member
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    @Thomas Stearn
    How right you are! By now it's clearer I meant to be facetious when doing the OP. Unfortunately, it seems our country has gone beyond the point where Presidential position legality is factual, and it has become theoretically
    not possible for a President to be above the law.
    Frank
     
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  7. Babs Hunt

    Babs Hunt Supreme Member
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    I'm willing to bet that almost all of our Presidents have at one time or another gone "above the law" while they were in Office. Now days they are all just doing it in front of our faces instead of behind our backs.
     
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  8. Harry Havens

    Harry Havens Veteran Member
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    Impeachment and removal from office is a "political" matter not a criminal or civil matter. Therefore the Supreme Court has no say in the matter, other than the Chief Justice presiding over the impeachment trial. The Supreme Court has been consistent in this regard on several occasions, such as this one from 1993. In theory a president can pardon oneself from prosecution for any federal crimes... up until the the final senate vote for removal from office, after which he would no longer be president. It would seem apparent that the President would be guaranteed removal from office for such pardon, although the politically charged climate might alter that dynamic. Gerald Ford was substantially correct when he stated that Congress could impeach on whatever grounds they wanted.
     
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  9. Shirley Martin

    Shirley Martin Supreme Member
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    Well, we'll just have to see that we don't have a Democratic majority. :D
     
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