When You See Heaven

Discussion in 'Faith & Religion' started by Shirley Martin, Jan 1, 2017.

  1. Patsy Faye

    Patsy Faye Supreme Member
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    Theres truth in what you say Beth especially on religion
    My perception of the soul is like a 'memory chip' - where it comes from ? The same goes for us as a whole doesn't it
    Its a question that may be answered as we progress - some of us feel a spirituality, some of us just float on by in this world
    So, the answer to your question ? …… I don't know :p

    @Beth Gallagher
     
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  2. Bob Kirk

    Bob Kirk Veteran Member
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    I don't think there is a breakdown or at least a breakdown that could attributed to secularism.

    Read this article then if you would post what you think about the article content

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...ation-and-facts-about-secularism-and-religion
    Misinformation and Facts about Secularism and Religion
    Even smart people perpetuate untruths about atheism and religion.
     
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  3. Hedi Mitchell

    Hedi Mitchell Supreme Member
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    Many years ago read and article about experiment on the weight of the soul.
    They had the bed weighted - and when the soul rose and left the body the weight changed. The soul leaves the body very soon after death so I have read.
    Any of this true? No idea just passing the info along. I intend to be cremated- just makes sense to me - in many ways.
     
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  4. Bob Kirk

    Bob Kirk Veteran Member
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  5. Beth Gallagher

    Beth Gallagher Supreme Member
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    That article is interesting, but is about whether secular people are more prone to anti-social behavior. (Which of course they are not.) And I'm sure there are many contributing factors to the breakdown of morals and good behavior in society. :D

    I will stand by my comment that the preaching of heaven/hell is and was a means of controlling people. (i.e, putting the "fear of God" into them.) I remember being wide-eyed with fear of the devil as a child, sitting in a southern Baptist church during a sermon. Thankfully I outgrew it, and after "trying on" several different religions I found they all left me with more questions than answers.
     
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  6. Bess Barber

    Bess Barber Veteran Member
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    I don't know if another person would know, or sense, if someone who has died went to heaven or hell or nowhere. I believe man is a spirit which will live forever. It is housed in a body on earth (think space suit), but that body is destined to die. Our spirits will live forever somewhere. Whether that be with God or without Him, is their choice. I can expound on that, since this is sort of a simplified explanation, but there isn't any reason to.

    I have always supported people's right to choose and believe what they wish to. The only sin keeping anyone out of heaven is the sin of unbelief because God can't go against a person's choice. So, I think I would at least take a few minutes and at least ask Him, you know, just in case. :)
     
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  7. Bob Kirk

    Bob Kirk Veteran Member
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    Trying to answer the op's question thoughts heaven & hell can be as simple as yes there is or no there isn't.

    For me no there isn't. Whether it's bible taught or the quran the concept is the same. Fear based.

    Consider this.

    Tribes or groups that never had exposer to the bible or a religious belief system had a moral code that served them in their society. As a way of life without the fear of what happens when they die they functioned well.
     
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  8. Frank Sanoica

    Frank Sanoica Supreme Member
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    @Yvonne Smith

    This is now moot, as the Church veered away from anti-cremation doctrine long ago.
    See: https://www.cnn.com/2016/10/25/europe/cremation-vatican-scattering/index.html
     
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  9. Bobby Cole

    Bobby Cole Supreme Member
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    There is no true definition of “soul” just as there is no true definition of “thought” or “consciousness”. Oh yeah, there are those Webster’s and Funk and Wagnall suppositions based on some form of logic but that which can not be seen, heard, felt nor measured by any scientific instrument today cannot be defined in understandable and definite terms.

    What is spirit remains spirit and those things deemed as material will remain material and only one of those can be totally realized because we are all housed in a flesh, blood and bone being.
    Note: Isn’t it a bit disturbing that the only thing the human body is for is to procreate and keep the brain alive? And isn’t it equally disturbing that the brain waves that are measured are not thought at all but the actions that takes place after a thought activates those actions? I digress....maybe.

    Science has recently declared that the whole universe is in a conscious state. Since I do believe that we are all connected then I have no problem believing that that which is called consciousness is the root of that connection. Do I dare call that consciousness God? I can and I am well within my own sanity to do so.

    When we read throughout the entirety of any theological manuscript there is no time when it is written that God killed or allowed a spirit to die. Even the spirit / fallen angel called Lucifer and his legions are still alive, so it is written.
    Did not the Saul ask the witch of Endor to call up the “spirit” of Samuel?

    The body may die, but the spirit / soul / mind lives on. Whether the eventual destination is the Biblical explanation of hell and heaven or a disassociation from God or a union of sorts with Him are concepts based on faith and the hopes of things to come.
    Saul of Tarsus or Paul as we know him, said that there are many mysteries and most of them had been revealed to him and he did indeed try to explain quite a few of them. Jesus attempted to reveal what heaven is like and even what mankind is capable of.
    The problem is that it is almost impossible to convert spiritual concepts into something that can be understood unless it has a material concept coinciding with the spiritual and let’s face it, mankind’s existence is pretty much based on materialism and matter.

    We can visualize mansions, huge pearls and golden streets as well as fire and brimstone for they are material and for the most part we understand only those things that the five senses can receive.
    When it comes to spiritual things, we are as blind men who cannot see color. A blind person is told there is color and even what color something might be but in the end, he has only his faith that there really is such a thing.
     
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  10. Beth Gallagher

    Beth Gallagher Supreme Member
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    I suppose I always need to break things down to simplest terms, but doesn't anyone wonder what the spirit living "forever" will actually mean? If there are no mansions, golden streets, or fluffy clouds with harps, what will forever be like? Will the soul float around the universe like a lightning bug on a summer night? (Sorry if it seems I am making light of this, but it just stumps me.)

    I remember that when I was a kid, my father was having a "gentle" argument with my uncle, who was Mormon. Apparently the Mormons believe that when we die, those who make it to heaven will recognize their loved ones there. My dad said, "so you get to heaven, look around, and your mother (or other loved ones) are not there. Are you in heaven?" That has stayed with me all these many years.

    Frankly, reincarnation sounds like a better idea for eternity; just trade the old broken down junker for a new model. I remember episodes of deja-vu as a young person that made me certain that I was familiar with places/things that I had never seen before.

    I have to say, I haven't experienced anything in this lifetime that makes me want to live forever. Of course, I'm not wild about dying, either... but that's part of the deal. I seem to be rambling. :D
     
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  11. Bobby Cole

    Bobby Cole Supreme Member
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    There’s a pretty good explanation for much of what many episodes of Deja-vu really is. The DNA molecule has approximately 3-4 gigs of memory some of which is called “entangled” dna memory. It consists in part of memories and events within our own gene pool.
    In a test with rats, a female rodent was subjected to small shocks when she went to one of two feeders. Later, she was allowed to mate and her young were then taken from her directly after they were born. When they got old enough, they young were then put in the same circumstance as the mother had been concerning the two feeders but neither feeder was energized. The young rodents didn’t go near the one the mother avoided because of the shocks she received from it. Some call it instinct but it’s been found that DNA entanglement and gene pool memory have a lot to do with how we react to certain things.

    Granted, this post really isn’t an answer to the OP, but it does give some evidence to what some consider to be experiences of a past life when in reality, it could well be that one of our direct ancestors had the experience but our genes have those experiences stored in our own DNA memory.
     
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  12. Beth Gallagher

    Beth Gallagher Supreme Member
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  13. Patsy Faye

    Patsy Faye Supreme Member
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    So pleased you mentioned this, I had the same thought many moons ago - I do a lot of thinking :cool:
     
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  14. Patsy Faye

    Patsy Faye Supreme Member
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    They also had a massive sense of spirituality, they believed there was something more to mortal life
     
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  15. Bobby Cole

    Bobby Cole Supreme Member
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    There is something that I have tried to explain to people for a number of years when it comes to questions dealing with spiritual values like heaven, hell and yes, the human soul.

    Simply written, we as human beings know nothing. Sans a few mathematical equations, we have no real idea what the finite is but we have the arrogance to claim we know something of that which is infinite.
    We say we create but in fact we remodel what has been created. We say that we can cure diseases but in fact there is not one disease that has been universally cured. Prevented maybe, but not cured. We build bombs and weapons of war from things we do not fully understand. We light our homes with electricity, a thing that is still not fully understood.
    Everything we think we know of the finite world, when broken down to it’s smallest ingredient we find out that we know absolutely nothing other than we do not know.
    When we research and study this world we find that nothing is really reasonable nor logical because logic and reason are products of experience and knowledge. When that experience and knowledge is thwarted by yet another discovery that undermines our previous logical explanations then we find out anew that we know only that which we are told to expect under the present circumstances and present realm of knowledge.

    The bottom line here is that when I hear folks say that logically there is no spirit, soul, heaven or hell much less a divine consciousness, I worry a bit for that person (or anyone else) only has supposition and logic to paint the picture of the finite world in which they exist and I guarantee that that picture will be found in error at some point.

    Everything in the finite world is based on trust, hope and whatever minuscule amount of knowledge we think we have so why is it so hard to believe that we who have no full understanding of the finite world can truthfully apply some understanding of that which is infinite?

    We are indeed a very arrogant species.
     
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